66 replies to this topic

[The Crooked Philosopher]

I wonder if 0 AD was able to implement infiltration, espionage, sabotage, and countermeasures?

The purpose of having such abilities is to provide player more option to execute new strategies instead of waging war with numerical advantage. Spy could avert the tides of war with the skills they have as strong factions can be subdued by weak factions while most RTS could barely offer such option.

The abilities of a spy:

1.Tech stealing: from all structures except for tower and other structure without technology.

2. Exposing enemy movement: spies could expose enemies movement as player could react against enemy.

3. Sabotage: spies could sabotage any unit production facility except for some specific structure to stop a structure to produce any unit.

4. Infiltration: Spy could disguise as enemy's civilian or soldier in order to enter enemy's territory and when the time is ripe player could execute plans that would cripple the enemy.

5. Bribery: Spy could bribe soldier or civilian to do their bidding.

6. Control structure: Spy could control certain structure for example: gatehouse with the help from player's soldiers and winning a siege without wasting further time on sieges.

Countermeasures and preventions:

1. Watch tower and outpost: Building watch tower and outpost at the border to detect spy.

2. Spy for counterintelligence: deploying spy on strategic structure to prevent enemy infiltration

3. Heroes for spy detection: Hero was given special ability to expose enemy spy and neutralize the enemy threat.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

I disagree. It seems like a really cheap mechanic to use in a real time strategy game that revolves around warfare not espionage, which was fairly insignificant at that time of the first part. Maybe ninjas could be added in as an easter egg unit though.

[fcxSanya]

Lion.Kanzen, on 30 May 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

spies its good idea, they are invisible like starcraft's ghost

Then we also need Oracle temple add-on to Civic Centre and science cart to detect them.

[Zeta1127]

fcxSanya, on 30 May 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

Then we also need Oracle temple add-on to Civic Centre and science cart to detect them.

Excellent, now all we need is a missile tower to round out the detectors.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Too many detectors and spies become useless.

We've talked about this before, and here's a roundup of how I'd see them working:

• The player can see the spy easily enough in his "spy gear" from the player's point of view (POV), but from the enemy's POV the unit looks just like one of their own soldiers.
  
• The spy can do things like infiltrate a building to see what's going on inside it (vision of the production queue).
  
• Spies can walk through enemy gates with no problem.
  
• Assassinate. Costs Metal ("Gold") of course. Cannot assassinate heroes. Takes time to "recharge."
  
• Bribe--Turncoat: Bribe a unit to your side. Costs variable amounts of Metal depending upon the training cost and rank of the unit being bribed. Sometimes this does not work and the spy is exposed for the fraud he is.
  
• Bribe--Double-Agent: Bribing an enemy unit to be a double agent gives you that unit's vision/line of sight for X-number of minutes.

Spies can be "found out" by:

• An unsuccessful bribe.
  
• Dogs. This would make Celts hard to spy on.
  
• The enemy player clicks on what they think is their own unit, but it does not respond to commands.
  
• Other spies can see other spies, but units do not auto-attack them.

[Sef]

Mythos_Ruler, on 30 May 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

Too many detectors and spies become useless.

We've talked about this before, and here's a roundup of how I'd see them working:

• The player can see the spy easily enough in his "spy gear" from the player's point of view (POV), but from the enemy's POV the unit looks just like one of their own soldiers.
  
• The spy can do things like infiltrate a building to see what's going on inside it (vision of the production queue).
  
• Spies can walk through enemy gates with no problem.
  
• Assassinate. Costs Metal ("Gold") of course. Cannot assassinate heroes. Takes time to "recharge."
  
• Bribe--Turncoat: Bribe a unit to your side. Costs variable amounts of Metal depending upon the training cost and rank of the unit being bribed. Sometimes this does not work and the spy is exposed for the fraud he is.
  
• Bribe--Double-Agent: Bribing an enemy unit to be a double agent gives you that unit's vision/line of sight for X-number of minutes.

Spies can be "found out" by:

• An unsuccessful bribe.
  
• Dogs. This would make Celts hard to spy on.
  
• The enemy player clicks on what they think is their own unit, but it does not respond to commands.
  
• Other spies can see other spies, but units do not auto-attack them.

One does not just walk into an enemy base unnoticed, even if he is disguised as one of them im pretty sure he will be spotted and when they try and click on the unit (spy disquised as villager) they will not be allowed and then they will be like "why can i not select that unit... OMFG A SPY!!"

Edited by Sef, 30 May 2012 - 10:21 PM.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Sef, on 30 May 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

One does not just walk into an enemy base unnoticed, even if he is disguised as one of them im pretty sure he will be spotted and when they try and click on the unit (spy disquised as villager) they will not be allowed and then they will be like "why can i not select that unit... OMFG A SPY!!"

It's a video game... an RTS video game at that. No time to RPG the character so that he gains the proper credentials, makes the right contacts, and pays off the right people.

[feneur]

I think implementing spies well is one of the harder things in an RTS, either they're too powerful and you will have to focus on using spies a lot (and thus not spend as much time/effort on economy/war) or too weak and you will rarely use them at all. To some extent I think most of the espionage can be implemented as "technologies". Similar to AoKs spies technology, but maybe not as overpowered. Something like click the spy button in the fortress, click an area of the map where you want to spy and you get LOS there for a couple of seconds, then a cooldown period before you can use it again. The same with most of the other things. The only things I think are hard to do well as "technologies" are sabotage/assassination as they preferably should be possible to stop/avert.

[memmaker650]

I agree The Crokked Philosopher's ideas.

Yeah, that's are options I play in Command & Conquer and Starcraft.

The option will be not have the option to create a great amount of spies, the spy/sabotage and more only could be done with one man/woman. Only when this spy is dead you could create another.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

That is what reconnaissance is for with your cavalry.

[kosmo]

I don't like this idea, because as far as i know, spies were not that relevant in that age and, if they won't deal a great advantage, wouldn't be used often, since this sounds like a lot of micromanagment.

@Lion.Kanzen
Well, if the enemy garrisons his army you won't see it as well and as cavalry is going to be able to run i think this should offer you enough time, if properly scouted with cavalry, to respond

[Alpha of the Eagles]

In Settlers 3, spies would do recon, but were exposed when enemy soldiers approached them. They could only steal resources and return with them, looking like the ordinary worker class. In Settlers 4, a saboteur unit was introduced, who carried a pickaxe, and looked like a worker with a pickaxe for the opposing players.

My experience is that you recognize spies fairly quick with some experience. Either the unit behaves strangely (non-AI movement), or comes seemingly out of nowhere. My only opinion in this matter is that it should not be neccessary to have a spy to expose other spies. They should be disguised in the color of the territory they reside in, so that player yellow won't expose the red spy in blue territory (because he sees it as yellow). It should be gaian in neutral territory and perhaps some tribes (Celts, Iberians) should become invisible moving close to trees or bushes (while others become invisible standing still in the forest, revealed if enemies come to close).

Perhaps defensive spies should be required to expose the identity of who sent it (you'll never know who sent it unless you have a couple yourself, but you can still kill them manually). Spies should be garrisonable for this purpose.

[The Crooked Philosopher]

Sounds good.

[Flamelasher]

I'm all for spies. Although the AI might not be able to handle them very well...

[Mythos_Ruler]

Lion.Kanzen, on 07 October 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

Most people prefers gameplay than graphic especially if are a lot for made.

Please remember, that those contributors who know graphics programming don't necessarily know how to do gameplay scripting and vice versa. Nor may they be interested in one or the other.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Espionage may seem very nice, but I think that it should be of low priority in comparison to other features. If it is featured, it should probably be implemented in part II

[zoot]

Lion.Kanzen, on 07 October 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

yes i know but need programmers working in gameplay.

What purpose does it serve to state the obvious? If you want more programmers working on gameplay, why not read up on some programming tutorials and work on it yourself? It's bound to be a lot more effective than wasting your energy on complaining about others not doing it.

[zoot]

Lion.Kanzen, on 07 October 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

you read the lastest suggestions? i say the gameplay are some forgotten, if you read this forum its not much progress the same things about buttons in GUI for example town bell and call to the arms. even nobody post in this forum. the ideas become jammed.

What makes you think it is forgotten? People may just be busy with other things.

[zoot]

Lion.Kanzen, on 07 October 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

that right but the project its no forever. and that why i was talk about programmers .

We can hope it won't take forever But I'm sure the project will go on for as long as need be.

Edited by zoot, 07 October 2012 - 02:11 PM.

[oshron]

espionage units can probably be simplified alot more than alot of comments here have suggested. instead of them appearing differently, simply make them invisible to all enemy units and buildings, and they remain invisible even when they're right next to them (in contrast to, for example, sniper units in Empire Earth). the only units and buildings that can spot spies are towers (of any kind) and other spies, and perhaps heroes and a few other very specific units (like the aforementioned Celtic dogs). the primary use of spies would be to detect enemy movements, so they should probably be able to navigate forests to that end

however, you can only have a specific number of spies at a time (i'd say 3-5) and, if a spy is detected, all units become hostile to it. though heroes can potentially have a special attack against spies whereby they try to convert them (because its always more useful to turn a spy to your side and make them a double-agent rather than kill them). heroes, as well-taught commanders, would probably be the only ones to have the presence of mind to do this