178 replies to this topic

[FeXoR]

Resuming to finish this (was caught by carnival ^^):

It would be nice to have a statement of a team member concerning the Iberian civ bonus walls.

zoot, on 12 February 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

IMO just a brief "Up to X players." comment in the map description would suffice. If they need more detailed info than that, they'll have to click the various sizes and see. People will quickly learn how many players the various size-map combinations accommodates.

Well, the shortest I can think of is still quite some text and the description widget is not that big (it's fitting ofc. but needs scrolling in most cases):
Tiny: 2 Players, Small: 4 Players, Medium: 6 Players, Normal+: 8 Players
Information about the defaults are not needed?

Done:
- Gulf of Bothnia: Set min. player cap to 2.
- Phoenician Levant: Set max. player caps to [4, 4, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8].
- Snowflake Searocks: Set min. player cap to 2.
- All the "Unknown" maps: Set max. player caps to [2, 4, 6, 8, 8, 8, 8].

ToDo:
- Guadalquivir River: On small maps with Iberians walls are placed for them but sometimes exceed the map border
To reproduce: Guadalquivir River, Small, 1 Player (Iberian), Seed 0
To fix: Move the start positions further away from the map border or avoid placing walls for Iberian players on small maps.
Replace line 145 with:

placeCivDefaultEntities(fx, fz, id, BUILDING_ANGlE, (mapSize/64 - 2 < 1) ? {"iberWall" : false} : undefined);

Waiting for a team-member to decide...

- In General: Iberian civ bonus if towers should be reduced to 5 instead of 7 mainly because of the population increase. Number of towers and average distance to CC (radius) should be added as keyword arguments to misk.js placeCivDefaultEntities(). Default is 15 for towers, 20 for walls (That's OK).
This will be another patch because not that close linked...

- Phoenician Levant: On small maps with 6 players Iberian walls nearly touch each other.
To fix: Reduce max. player caps to [4, 4, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8] or don't place Iberian walls in small maps.
Replace line 180 with:

placeCivDefaultEntities(fx, fz, id, BUILDING_ANGlE, (mapSize/64 - 2 < 1) ? {"iberWall" : false} : undefined);

Waiting for a team-member to decide (though fixed by max. player caps for the time being)...

- Pyrenean Sierra: Players start positions are placed to close to the water. Iberian walls extend beyond the shore sometimes.
To reproduce: Pyrenean Sierra, Small, 1 Player (Iberian), Seed 0
To Fix: There is enough space on the map! Please move the starting locations so the walls have enough space to be placed.
The RMS designer himself should look into this IMO...

- Rhine Marshlands: Sometimes the Iberian Walls extend into water here as well. It's not that bad but I think the the amount of space granted for players bases could be slightly increased. Alternately to use towers instead of walls could work better here.
The RMS designer himself should look into this IMO...

- All the "Unknown" maps: I refuse to check them! However, I will try to add a function that enables loading from RMS inside other RMS.
This will be another patch since not related...


Updated ticket: http://trac.wildfire...com/ticket/1834

Waiting for a decision on Iberian civ bonus wall problems on Small map sizes and/or review of the ticket before proceeding with the other issues...

Edited by FeXoR, 13 February 2013 - 10:26 AM.

[Spahbod]

FeXoR: Thank you for your efforts.

Quote

- Guadalquivir River:

I think we should remove the walls.

Quote

- Phoenician Levant:

And add the max player cap for this one.

Quote

- Pyrenean Sierra:

Moving the start locations would ruin the whole purpose of this as a Team1-vs-Team2 map. I'd rather use towers instead.

Quote

- Rhine Marshlands:

Increasing the available space for players won't hurt in this one.

Quote

- All the "Unknown" maps:

Just that min players should be 2 (gulf).


And I think Canyon should have a minimum players of 2.
Edit: Just saw that you've done that already.

[FeXoR]

THX for the reply.

Done:
- Guadalquivir River: Removed Iberian civ bonus walls for Small map size.
NOTE: I made a mistake in the code though (Fail by one, in the last post, not in the patch ^^)! The right code is:

placeCivDefaultEntities(fx, fz, id, BUILDING_ANGlE, (mapSize/64 - 2 < 2) ? {"iberWall" : false} : undefined);

- Phoenician Levant: Set max. player caps to [4, 4, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8].
- Pyrenean Sierra: I oversaw something here: If only one player is used he is placed so close to the water. So I choose to:
Set the min. player cap to 2 and only add towers on small maps as civ. bonus for Iberians.
NOTE: If 2 non-allied Iberian players are next to each other on the same side of the mountains on small maps towers will start shoot each other right from start!
But if it is meant as a team map, OK ^^.
(Just noticed that mapSize is set to getMapSize()+1 here so used round here)
- All the "Unknown" maps: Set min. player caps to 2 and max. player caps to [2, 4, 6, 8, 8, 8, 8].

I agree with this mainly but still I see the problem: How to communicate this to the player? The player should know what civ bonus he gets IMO but can only find out by playing the map so far.

Patch/files replaced in http://trac.wildfire...com/ticket/1834

Checking if this can easily be auto-added to the description...
Not very readable I fear. Well. No more ideas ATM.

I'd say add the patch and look how confused players get

Oh, wait! It's not that bad! Adding patch... Done!
(The minimum players caps (if present) as well as the maximum player caps by map size are now automatically added to the RMS description in gamesetup.js. Guess that's better than nothing...)

Sorry for the string voodoo but I found no other way without looping (normally I try to avoid regular expressions):

MAX_PLAYERS_BY_MAP_SIZE_RMS.toString().replace(/,/g, ", ")

OK. Done!

Please check the ticket and test if everything works as wanted and is self-explanatory enough. THX!

Edited by FeXoR, 13 February 2013 - 06:50 PM.

[Pureon]

Well done FeXoR! Now we need some folks to test it out

Ideally we would inform the player what Iberian bonus is received based on the map settings chosen. However I also think we should keep things simple and just refer to it as a starting defensive bonus - not necessarily a walled base. Having a popup would get annoying. Lets see if this becomes an issue after Alpha 13 is released, i doubt it will.

[FeXoR]

I'm not sure if this changes are indeed wanted.

Please try to avoid assigning a task before this is certain.

EDIT: I think the patch is helpful and working as it should. I'm open for changes ofc.
Avoiding limitations and trust the intelligence of the user is IMO a good thing, too, so this argument is valid for me as well.

EDIT2: I would like to know which decision was made on this matter:
- Reject player caps because a number of players to use on the different map sizes is recommended already in the map size description and the host should decide on this basis by himself?
- Reject the patch but in general agree to let RMS choose the player caps?
- Anything else?
- None?

Edited by FeXoR, 15 February 2013 - 10:46 AM.

[junglejim88]

Hi, my first post on these forums

I downloaded the alpha 12 release a week ago and have been messing with the map (3d world!) editor ever since. And so i want to talk about scenarios, although i suspect they are largely based on random maps any way so i hope my suggestions apply to both scenarios and random maps.

Not enough flat pure land map scripts; ie. maps which feature no water. and have a minimum of raised areas (like badlands and canyon ect) or lowered areas (like alpine valley), the ones i can think of which are closest to what i mean are the wooded maps like ardennes forest, deep forest, and latium although i find the forest maps have too mutch ... forest and the pathfinding finds it difficult to navigate these maps in troop formations (trees getting in the way!)

- I would like to see a desert type map with minimum raised areas and no water along the lines of badlands ( my fave map of all - i remove the oasis in the middle with the editor and make gaps through the ring of trees so troops can move through). - Which reminds me ... i was playing a badlands match (unaltered map with oasis) and the enemy siege engines were unable to pass through that ring of trees around the oasis. Having found a way inside the ring they then couldn't find a way out on en-route to my gates so the whole formation of troops got stuck for the duration until i wiped them out myself.

- I would like to see a flat/no water map which is just a green, temperate grassy map with fewer trees and minimal raised areas. (like the lorraine plain but without rivers).

On a different note i find the alpine valley/canyon maps have too many raised areas/cliffs/mountainous bits and pathfinding again find it difficult when moving troops in formation. And also when playing sahel watering holes (another fave) i found a formation of enemy troops, whilst crossing the narrow path through the water all got stuck behind an elephant which was getting in the way, and the whole formation stayed there for the duration of the match i was playing (until i destroyed them myself) ... so either make the paths wider or make sure animals dont spawn on those paths.

Aside from that i'm happy with the random map scripts.

A suggestion for the map (3d world!) editor: Is it possible to add a texture picker? y'know... like a colour picker except for textures, where you click on a texture and that texture is then applied to your paint brush.

Well, that's my lot ... for now

edit: Zoot ... thanks for your response below: that makes me really happy!

Edited by junglejim88, 19 February 2013 - 11:13 AM.

[zoot]

junglejim88, on 19 February 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

A suggestion for the map (3d world!) editor: Is it possible to add a texture picker? y'know... like a colour picker except for textures, where you click on a texture and that texture is then applied to your paint brush.

There already is one Just press Shift while clicking on the tile you want to 'pick' the texture from.

[FeXoR]

Since I got no response whatsoever concerning player caps on random maps I can only assume that there will me no such thing in the near future.

However there are other matters:

- Load an RMS (it's js and json) from within another RMS.js (mainly for "The Unknown" maps):
So far AFAIk only a hole directory but not a single js file can be loaded from within an RMS.js (with RMS LoadLibrary([Directory to load]) in public/ps/trunk/source/graphics/MapGenerator.cpp line 149)
So it would be nice to be able to load a single js file as well.
In addition to that the json file has to be reloaded to adjust the settings appropriate to the map chosen by "The Unknown" RMS after or during its runtime.
Any suggestions how to do this?
I guess we need the agreement of the coding team here as well so please check if they want to do it themselves or if they in general agree to add this functionality at all or what other suggestion they have for "The Unknown" maps to be easier to debug and contain less duplicated code. So if any of the team members read this a comment would be highly appreciated.
EDIT: It seams that there are at least 3 ways to do a similar thing (not sure if all of that works as wanted):
1.) Add different "Random" maps in the gui code that then randomly chooses from a given map pool (e.g. "Random Land" etc.).
2.) Add finer categories like "Naval Maps" or such and let "Random" then load a random map of this category.
3.) Add a LoadRms() function in MapGenerator.cpp similar to LoadLibrary().

- Fix the maps so none of them raises errors with any number of possible players and reduce wired things like walls reaching into water, other walls or the map border or towers starting to shoot at each other right from the beginning of the game as far as possible:
Canyon: Fix the PathPlacer() function pathplacer.js or see if wrong values are given to it. I used my own functions to generate paths so far so I don't have any experience with this. Better someone else look into this if possible.
Iberian Civ Bonus in general: This can be determined as an optional argument to placeCivDefaultEntities() in binaries/data/mods/public/maps/random/rmgen/misc.js line 171 already so only the RMS.js would have to be changed. I'll look into this.
If any agreement is needed here as well please let me know.

Edited by FeXoR, 21 February 2013 - 08:36 PM.

[feneur]

Just to make you aware of http://www.wildfireg...showtopic=17097 the first issue mentioned. Judging by the first reporters later tests it seems as if it might be something GUI related, so maybe it would be easier for Spahbod to fix it, but that's not to say that no one else can look into it of course

[FeXoR]

feneur, on 28 February 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

Just to make you aware of http://www.wildfireg...showtopic=17097 the first issue mentioned. Judging by the first reporters later tests it seems as if it might be something GUI related, so maybe it would be easier for Spahbod to fix it, but that's not to say that no one else can look into it of course

Thx, saw it. I'll not have much time in the next weak but after that, who know

I just noticed that RMS are no longer loaded from AppData\Local\0ad\cache\mods\public\maps\random so is there another folder maps are loaded from now (like Documents/My Games or so)?

[leper]

Try My Games\0ad\mods\public (or mods\user). Just curious, but did you create the first folder yourself, or was that generated by the game (Where there any files in it)?

[FeXoR]

leper, on 01 March 2013 - 01:21 PM, said:

Try My Games\0ad\mods\public (or mods\user). Just curious, but did you create the first folder yourself, or was that generated by the game (Where there any files in it)?

I created it myself (from mods on, no files put there by the game) to test changes to RMS while still having changes applied made in SVN without interfering with my changes.

My Games\0ad\mods\public works perfectly, thx. It would be nice though to reload mod data in Atlas if they changes during Atlas is opened. It's not doing that for some time now (long before the path change) but in the beginning reloaded them depending on the last date of change (so if the latest changes where made to the specific file in the 0ad dir this is used, otherwise the one in the cache or hopefully now My Games). It still uses the newest version when Atlas is launched but does not check if a file is changed while running. Reload during runtime would make debugging/designing much more easy.

EDIT: Oh! Changes in RMS are applied during runtime of Atlas! Checking RMGEN lib changes... Whow! They too! Thx much for this! Wonderful!

Edited by FeXoR, 01 March 2013 - 02:49 PM.

[leper]

FeXoR, on 01 March 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

I created it myself (from mods on, no files put there by the game) to test changes to RMS while still having changes applied made in SVN without interfering with my changes.

Ah good to know, I removed handling of that path because nothing got created in it and it seemed pretty obscure and unused.

Quote

My Games\0ad\mods\public works perfectly, thx.

You can also use My Games\0ad\mods\user and create the files (same folder structure) there and the game will load them, but by passing -noUserMod to the executable you can disable loading of the user mod (eg You found a bug and want to see if it is something that is caused by your mod).

[FeXoR]

leper, on 01 March 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

Ah good to know, I removed handling of that path because nothing got created in it and it seemed pretty obscure and unused.

You can also use My Games\0ad\mods\user and create the files (same folder structure) there and the game will load them, but by passing -noUserMod to the executable you can disable loading of the user mod (eg You found a bug and want to see if it is something that is caused by your mod).

Perfect! Thx for letting me know

Recollecting issues on random maps (to get an overview about how helpful player restrictions would be):

Legend:
Connected to number of players to map size ratio.
Connected to wall_builder.js in general or specifically to Iberian Civ bonus defensive structures.
Connected to not enough space for players bases
Not really RMS related

General issues:
- Iberians on Tiny maps (General issue): By default tiny maps don't grand any defensive capacity to Iberian players. Fix: Only changing the start positions (so they are at least 20 tiles away from the map border) and add player caps can help here IMO so there is enough space to place the Iberian Civ bonus defensive structures.
- 8 Iberians on Small maps (General issue): Iberian Walls are to close to each other (shooting at each other right from the beginning of the game). Fix: Only player caps would help here IMO.
- Entities inside walls obstruction (General issue): Walls placed with wall_placer.js functionality may be placed on trees. Fix: Grand RMGEN access to the entity templates, add a "remove entity" function to RMGEN, add "remove obstructed entities" to wall_builder.js.
- Walls in unreachable areas: Sometimes Iberian walls (or walls placed with wall_placer.js in general) may wind up on cliffs or in water. Fix: Grand players enough room for the walls (20 tiles radius) on Small or bigger maps (Irregularity of the wall still might cause issues). General fix: Make the wall builder check if walls can be placed in that area. For that RMGEN would need access to the entity template data and information about how step the terrain can be to place buildings.
- Many RMS take long to be generated (historic_bruno thinks that is a big issue). Fix: More or less complete rewrite of all RMS and eventually the RMGEN API as well (I think this might help but is also a little drastic. Current RMS have issues but are far away from being unplayable).

Map specific issues:
- Aegean Sea: Unreachable trees on islands. Fix: Check in the Unit AI if target is reachable.
- Alpine Lakes: Iberian Walls reach into cliffs and lakes. Fix: Grand the players more space.
- Alpine Valley: Iberian Walls reach into cliffs. Fix: Grand the players more space.
- Anatolian Plateau: OK.
- Archipelago: Not sure how it should work.
- Ardennes Forest: Iberian Walls reach into cliffs. Fix: Grand the players more space.
- Atlas Mountains: Iberian Walls reach into cliffs. Fix: Grand the players more space.
- Belgian Uplands: Iberians get no Civ Bonus defensive buildings. Fix: No idea. The map is not always fair. "Fix": Add a category for random maps that are not as balanced but more realistic or random than the "standard" RMS.
- Cantabrian Highlands: Iberian Civ Bonus towers are placed on cliffs. Fix: Add a keyword argument to change the radius of the Iberian Civ Bonus to placeCivDefaultEntities() in rmgen/misk.js.
- Canyon: This map causes an error when generated with 1 player. Fix: Hunt down the bug in the code. Iberian Walls reach into cliffs. Fix: Grand the players more space.
- Continent: Iberian Walls reach into each other on Small maps with 8 players. Fix: Grand walls to Iberian players only on medium and larger maps or add player caps.
- Corinthian Isthmus: Iberian walls/circle of towers excess the map border: Fix: Change players start positions.
- Corsica vs Sardinia: Iberian Walls overlap each other and wind up in Cliffs. Fix.: Remove Iberian Civ Bonus defensive structures and add player caps.
- Cycladic Archipelago: On Tiny maps islands sometimes are connected. Fix: Add Player caps.
- Deep Forest: On big maps the many trees cause huge CPU/GPU usage. Fix: No idea. Formations get stuck in the forest. Fix: Fix Unit AI, Pathfinder and Formation functionality. With high player to map size ratios there is not much wood left on this map. Fix: Not really a bug, it's just nut much space left. The numbers of paths could be reduced though.
- English Channel: Iberian walls/circle of towers excess the map border: Fix: Change players start positions or make it a rectangular map..
- Fortress: On tiny maps with 8 players walls overlap. Fix: Add player caps. On small maps with 8 players walls are so close to each other that they might shoot arrows right from the start of the game.
- Gear: Iberian Walls reach into water. Fix: Place towers instead. Unreachable trees on island. Fix: Check in the Unit AI if target is reachable.
- Guadalquivir River: Iberian Walls overlap. Fix.: Change start positions.
- Gulf of Bothnia: Iberian Walls reach into cliffs. Fix: Grand the players more space.
-
WIP...

NOTE: I am just summarizing issues and tell how they could be fixed. That does in no way mean that they have to be fixed like I suggest. IMO we have to gather ways to fix them and then decide what to do. Pointing out things are bad but then rejecting a way to fix them without telling an another suitable way to go does not help so please focus on (alternative) ways to fix issues (and at some point we have to agree on something ofc.).

Edited by FeXoR, 05 March 2013 - 12:47 PM.

[Zeta1127]

I know this thread is for random maps, but there isn't a scenario thread and things seem to get dealt with when posted here.

To my knowledge, the scenario Laconia still uses the old version of the Spartiā́tēs in the starting army that is supposed to get massacred.

Also, units don't seem to be able to reach the top of the southwestern acropolis in some versions of the scenario Acropolis, specifically Acropolis 2, 3, and 5, when there is an unfinished Greek temple or treasure on top of it.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Zeta1127, on 07 March 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

I know this thread is for random maps, but there isn't a scenario thread and things seem to get dealt with when posted here.

To my knowledge, the scenario Laconia still uses the old version of the Spartiā́tēs in the starting army that is supposed to get massacred.

IIRC, those are Hellenistic Spartan pikemen.

Quote

Also, units don't seem to be able to reach the top of the southwestern acropolis in some versions of the scenario Acropolis, specifically Acropolis 2, 3, and 5, when there is an unfinished Greek temple or treasure on top of it.

Those are there for eye candy, IIRC.

[alpha123]

(Continuing discussion from http://www.wildfireg...=60#entry267877)

FeXoR, on 19 April 2013 - 12:47 AM, said:

Though that might me more of a topic fitting http://www.wildfireg...showtopic=16242 :
I don't like to have a similar amount and distribution of resources on all maps. I like variety. Indeed I'd like to have at least one map that only got wood (and maybe some food). Stone and metal would have to be traded than.

That's terrible for multiplayer. Unless you don't want random maps to be played in multiplayer (only the yet-to-be-implemented skirmish maps), there NEEDS to be resource balance for all players. As for different maps having more or less of specific resources, yes, that's fine (there could be a high wood but low stone map) as long as the resources are equal for all players. It can't be too extreme though, or else certain maps start to heavily favor certain civs: in your example, that map would be much better as the Gauls than as the Romans.

[sanderd17]

Are all occurences of "trees outside the map scope" fixed now? Because I've seen some trees outside the map of gulf of bothnia in my build from April 5th.

Also, every now and then, a berry bush appears inside a stone or metal mine, and workers from the AI desperately want to get it.

I do launch my games from command line lately, if that makes a difference (regarding the allowed map sizes etc, although I normally use the default map size)

Edited by sanderd17, 20 April 2013 - 09:52 AM.

[FeXoR]

alpha123, on 19 April 2013 - 01:17 AM, said:

(Continuing discussion from http://www.wildfireg...=60#entry267877)

That's terrible for multiplayer. Unless you don't want random maps to be played in multiplayer (only the yet-to-be-implemented skirmish maps), there NEEDS to be resource balance for all players. As for different maps having more or less of specific resources, yes, that's fine (there could be a high wood but low stone map) as long as the resources are equal for all players. It can't be too extreme though, or else certain maps start to heavily favor certain civs: in your example, that map would be much better as the Gauls than as the Romans.

What I meant is:
- There should be a bunch of maps optimized for multiplayer. Those should grand the players access to all resource types and all of them should be equally hard to reach for all players. Those maps are often symmetric. Due to the focus on playability those maps tend to be quite similar and unrealistic in landscape and resource derivation though.
- There should be some maps focusing on realistic landscape and/or resource derivation as well as some maps that grand not "sufficient" access to all types of resources for multiplayer games (I think however the second this is more a question of taste than on playability). Those maps can be separated in another category like "others" while the others might go to "MP optimized" or something.