80 replies to this topic

[L'ethu]

 Sounds logical to me and possible by common sense, but will it clash with historical accuracy?  I don't know. Perhaps we should leave it to the team or if someone could find some evidence about the Iberian naval combat documents then it could be helpful. 

Edited by L'ethu, 28 February 2012 - 12:41 PM.

[Shogun 144]

My 2 cents:

To my knowledge there is just a lot we do not know about the Iberians and naval warfare. Thorfinn's suggestion makes sense. Also, we could add to the Iberians some Celtic warships, maybe one unit or two, acting as mercenaries in the Iberian player's service or what not. But I don't know if it would be supportable. Something to consider, nevertheless.

[Cassador_Chris]

I just had an idea. This quote come from Carthage Must Be Destroyed by Richard Miles.

Quote

"Marine archaeologists have found the remains of several Carthaginian ships dating to this period, of which one in particular, found lying on the seabed just off Marsala on the west coast of Sicily, has excited much interest. It was a small military craft in use sometime around the mid third century BC. On close inspection, archaeologists were amazed to discover that each piece of the boat was carefully marked with a letter which ensured that the complex design could be easily and swiftly assembled. The Marsala wreck had, in effect, been a flat-pack warship."

The idea would be that the Iberians could purchase these flat-pack warships (presumably from Carthage) like one might call crates from their home city in AOEIII, and then assemble them on any shoreline quickly. It would certainly give the Iberians an unique navel advantage. Not only would they be able to launch these small craft from anywhere, but they could build up a whole fleet without the enemy being able to attack it or even know about it, and then launch it into action at a moment's notice to defend your coast against assault.

EDIT:
Another (unrelated) idea I had was to create random pirate/privateer strongholds on navel maps. Like a combination between the natives of AOEIII and the pirates of Sins of a Solar Empire, these strongholds could be brought over to your side in return for offering them a lump sum. They would then spawn ships for free that the player could directly control. These ships would focus on speed and on capturing or looting enemy ships. A player would only lose the free spawns of warships if another player offered a greater sum to the stronghold. On navel maps, it could be an option that Iberians might pursue. Alternatively, one could just give them access to training a pirating vessel, which would also work.

Edited by Cassador_Chris, 28 February 2012 - 08:53 PM.

[oshron]

personally, i think it would be easier to make just a special "pirate stronghold" building (functionally identical to a dock) that you can either destroy or capture and use for yourself. the pirate stronghold would be able to build just one type of multipurpose "pirate ship" that any civ could train and which would look different depending on which civ builds it (they could/should probably resemble a regular ship of that civ but with black sails)

[Pedro Falcão]

Awesome ideas, Chris and L'ethu, but what about the team? Are there any plans to change this void at the iberian gameplay? Will the iberians really be this "unbalanced"? Or the team is reserving these thinkings to a later stage of the game?

[Mythos_Ruler]

oshron, on 28 February 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

personally, i think it would be easier to make just a special "pirate stronghold" building (functionally identical to a dock) that you can either destroy or capture and use for yourself. the pirate stronghold would be able to build just one type of multipurpose "pirate ship" that any civ could train and which would look different depending on which civ builds it (they could/should probably resemble a regular ship of that civ but with black sails)

I don't think that would be particularly "easier" than any other way. The "easiest" way to go would be to stick with the fire ships Pureon and I made, or to just give them a slightly nerfed version of the Celtic Warship.

[Cassador_Chris]

Mythos_Ruler, on 28 February 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

I don't think that would be particularly "easier" than any other way. The "easiest" way to go would be to stick with the fire ships Pureon and I made, or to just give them a slightly nerfed version of the Celtic Warship.

I'm not against the fire ship route. Fire ships are primarily defensive anyway, so they'd fit the Iberians in that sense. Just tossing more ideas into the hat, I suppose!

[oshron]

i had meant easier as opposed to designing an entirely new aspect of gameplay (eg, natives a la AOE3) like i said, i still support giving them a fireship, though perhaps the ship could be relegated to being a late-game unit that the iberians need to research a special tech for

[Pureon]

oshron, on 28 February 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

though perhaps the ship could be relegated to being a late-game unit that the iberians need to research a special tech for

The merchant ship's garrison defense could potentially also be a tech upgrade.

[Pedro Falcão]

And what about hijacking ships? Any plans for this feature? It is an exciting feature. I'd like to know about other aspects of naval combat, too: The basic strategy for triremes (when engaging combat by one side of the opponent) was to plunge into the enemy ship with their bronze frontal tip, raid the ship, detach and let it sink due to the hole on its hull; I'd be really excited to see something like this in 0 A.D., even though i think it would make players feel ships too fragile and not use them.

[feneur]

Pedro Falcão, on 28 February 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

And what about hijacking ships? Any plans for this feature? It is an exciting feature. I'd like to know about other aspects of naval combat, too: The basic strategy for triremes (when engaging combat by one side of the opponent) was to plunge into the enemy ship with their bronze frontal tip, raid the ship, detach and let it sink due to the hole on its hull; I'd be really excited to see something like this in 0 A.D., even though i think it would make players feel ships too fragile and not use them.

Ramming is planned for part 1, boarding/capturing ships is postponed for now, perhaps in part 2.

[L'ethu]

oshron, on 28 February 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

personally, i think it would be easier to make just a special "pirate stronghold" building (functionally identical to a dock) that you can either destroy or capture and use for yourself. the pirate stronghold would be able to build just one type of multipurpose "pirate ship" that any civ could train and which would look different depending on which civ builds it (they could/should probably resemble a regular ship of that civ but with black sails)

Good idea.

[hhyloc]

An option to hire mercenary ships is nice, although I think we should give this option to the Iberian only. Because a Pirate Stronghold will work for any sides which captured it, so other factions - with its superior naval ships, can rush in and quickly overpower the Iberian ships and capture the Stronghold, fortified it with many ships, and thus prevent the Iberian from re-capture it and cripple them effectively in any future naval battles.

[oshron]

hhyloc, on 01 March 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

An option to hire mercenary ships is nice, although I think we should give this option to the Iberian only. Because a Pirate Stronghold will work for any sides which captured it, so other factions - with its superior naval ships, can rush in and quickly overpower the Iberian ships and capture the Stronghold, fortified it with many ships, and thus prevent the Iberian from re-capture it and cripple them effectively in any future naval battles.

hypothetically, though, the iberians could rush the beach and build up from the center of the island, attacking the ships with ranged units and/or buildings. the idea i have with a pirate stronghold is simply that it would have a unit that any civ could train, whereas with a regular dock the iberians would still (in theory) be limited to their own ships

this brings up two thoughts, though:

• would the iberians and other civilizations be able to train foreign units from captured buildings? for example, would the persians be able to train hoplites from a captured greek barracks? because if thats the case then that could simplify everything: the iberians could just capture an enemy dock and train foreign ships there
  
• will you be able to auto-kill units and/or buildings in 0ad, like in AOE? cuz that would be a total @#$% move if the holding player deleted the pirate stronghold (or any other building) just before an enemy player successfully captured it. or will buildings in the process of being captured be incapable of deletion?

Edited by oshron, 01 March 2012 - 07:43 AM.

[hhyloc]

oshron, on 01 March 2012 - 07:43 AM, said:

• would the iberians and other civilizations be able to train foreign units from captured buildings? for example, would the persians be able to train hoplites from a captured greek barracks? because if thats the case then that could simplify everything: the iberians could just capture an enemy dock and train foreign ships there
• will you be able to auto-kill units and/or buildings in 0ad, like in AOE? cuz that would be a total @#$% move if the holding player deleted the pirate stronghold (or any other building) just before an enemy player successfully captured it. or will buildings in the process of being captured be incapable of deletion?

1. IIRC, it's planned to have the captured building able to train your own units only, at least by default until the player research a technology. So even if the Iberians player managed to capture an enemy's dock, he will only able to train his faction ships only.
2. I think for neutral buildings like the Pirate Stronghold, we should make it undestroyable by any player, like the merc buldings in Warcraft III.

[oshron]

hhyloc, on 01 March 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:

[/list]1. IIRC, it's planned to have the captured building able to train your own units only, at least by default until the player research a technology. So even if the Iberians player managed to capture an enemy's dock, he will only able to train his faction ships only.
2. I think for neutral buildings like the Pirate Stronghold, we should make it undestroyable by any player, like the merc buldings in Warcraft III.

sounds good to me and thanks for your prompt answer

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Just my two cents, but why call it 'pirate stronghold'? That does not seem to fit a game where the building names are in the native language of the respective civilizations.

Edited by Thorfinn the Shallow Minded, 01 March 2012 - 04:12 PM.

[oshron]

well one other suggestion ive had is that the neutral "gaia" player to which the stronghold would go would be assigned a particular civilization depending on what the map is (for example, if the map is supposed to be set in britain or france, the gaia player would be assigned the celtic civ). potentially, this could affect the name given to the pirate stronghold. alternatively, research could be done into what civilization(s) spawned the most prolific pirates of the period and the name could be given based on that, even if it isnt a playable civilization (for example, if it was the phoenicians, it could be given a phoenician name) and the name would change to a respective name for each civilization, though the default "non-ethnic" name could/would probably still be "pirate stronghold". you could assign whatever translated name you want, though; the greek translation could potentially be "pirate hideout", for instance, or "mercenary dock"

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Overall though, it seems more logical to not even have a mercenary building. When you begin a game perhaps you could merely choose if every civilization could hire mercenaries. (The Carthaginians of course would always be able to.) Most of the hiring should be done at the Civic Centre and would be limited to the scope of regional units. In order to get a ship built by the natives, you just pay a bunch of gold and wood and presto. However, the scale should be limited to only one ship, and at that it should be nothing more than a trireme or bireme.

Edited by Thorfinn the Shallow Minded, 02 March 2012 - 12:16 PM.

[Escrime]

feneur, on 28 February 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

Ramming is planned for part 1, boarding/capturing ships is postponed for now, perhaps in part 2.

Looking at features intended for v1.0, couldn't the 0AD team cobbled togeather a simple ship capture system?
I mean you've got loyalty damage leading to capture for buildings and damage auras for elephants and chariots both planned. So, take the former, add a simple "if this unit is a ship and loyalty equals zero, kill garrison"; take the latter and make it drain loyalty instead of health at a rate dependent on the attack values of melee infantry aboard; tack some form of graphic atop.

Only problem I'd see is if two ships of the same type with exactly the same loadout bumped into each other...

Edited by Escrime, 07 March 2012 - 03:18 AM.