80 replies to this topic

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Perhaps you could buy ships from civilizations

[L'ethu]

Thorfinn the Shallow Minded, on 21 February 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

Perhaps you could buy ships from civilizations

Hiring mercenary war vessels? Sounds logical to me, but will they accept this proposal? No, i don't think so.

[hhyloc]

L, on 21 February 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

Hiring mercenary war vessels? Sounds logical to me, but will they accept this proposal? No, i don't think so.

Whoa don't be so negative, I'm pretty sure that there are nothing wrong with hiring mercenary naval ships as long as gameplay goes, and a good proposal has a high chance to be accepted so don't abandon your hope

[oshron]

Mythos_Ruler, on 21 February 2012 - 04:27 AM, said:

They wouldn't get into a naval conflict.

say, do ships count towards the "total annihilation" victory objective (yknow, the standard RTS objective where you just completely wipe out your enemy)? because it occurs to me that, if the iberians cant build any warvessels, then in a pitched battle between them and, say, someone playing as teh hellenes, if the hellenes are utterly beaten, couldnt they conceivably just troll the iberian player after theyre otherwise utterly defeated by sending their remaining ships out into waters where the iberians cant get them? i mean, unless its got some citizen-soldiers on it, there's no way that the ships by themselves would be able to win anyway

[SypheDMar]

It's obvious that the Iberians aren't meant to be played in a 1v1 multiplayer scenario in water-based maps, and doing so is suicide. I'm just glad that the team isn't making this game into a Rock-Paper-Scissor game by "balancing" everything. However, the "Total Annihilation" feature might need to be tweaked with Iberians just to prevent abuse and stalls (i.e. Hellenes destroy Iberian ally, and Iberian destroy all of Hellenes except fleet. Fleet runs away, destroy Iberian naval base, and continuously harrass shipbuilders, or they just stab one citizen in a transport and rebuild their civilization.)

[oshron]

exactly. my question/suggestion is that ships by themselves shouldnt count as "survivors"; i mean, in Empire Earth, for instance, a total conquest victory is given if your opponent doesnt have any building THAT THEY CAN STILL USE. a house, for instance, doesnt count because it has no military functions, whereas a barracks can still conceivably produce units which (unlikely as it is) could destroy your entire civilization by themselves. a friend of mine had a situation like this in a round of Command & Conquer where his three enemies (CPs, i would imagine) all nuked him at the same time, but some of his army survived and he was able to capture some of his enemies' buildings and beat them anyway

in short, as long as the player still has units which can rebuild his civilization, then the game should continue, but since ships cant do that (right?), they shouldnt count towards "total annihilation" victory requirements

Edited by oshron, 21 February 2012 - 09:14 PM.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Why shouldn't ships be counted? I'm not following. You realize your reasoning could apply to heroes and champion units and siege units? So, even if I have 50 ships, a Hero, and 20 Champion units, I should lose the game if my opponent has managed to destroy my buildings and still has 1 citizen-soldier left?

The conceptual problem everyone is having with this is that the Iberians would be screwed if the enemy took over the sea. You have to realize, on an island map, no matter what faction you are, you are screwed if the enemy takes control of the sea. Naval superiority is just not possible for the Iberians, so you just wouldn't choose them in a 1v1 islands match up... unless you developed some kind of amphibious assault strategy. I really don't think the Huns in Part II are going to have a a good time on island maps either, and neither should they. Same for Iberians in Part 1.

Although... I may be open to giving them the Celtic warship. I don't feel a particular need to do that though. I'm certainly okay with some factions having stark weaknesses in some areas, making them underdogs on certain maps or under certain conditions. Part of the fun could be learning how to overcome these weaknesses and achieve victory despite them.

[quantumstate]

Mythos_Ruler, on 21 February 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

Why shouldn't ships be counted? I'm not following. You realize your reasoning could apply to heroes and champion units and siege units? So, even if I have 50 ships, a Hero, and 20 Champion units, I should lose the game if my opponent has managed to destroy my buildings and still has 1 citizen-soldier left?

The conceptual problem everyone is having with this is that the Iberians would be screwed if the enemy took over the sea. You have to realize, on an island map, no matter what faction you are, you are screwed if the enemy takes control of the sea. Naval superiority is just not possible for the Iberians, so you just wouldn't choose them in a 1v1 islands match up... unless you developed some kind of amphibious assault strategy. I really don't think the Huns in Part II are going to have a a good time on island maps either, and neither should they. Same for Iberians in Part 1.

This is reasonable but this should be made very clear, probably with a warning popping up if you pick then on a naval map. Also playing with random civs is pretty common so the random civ selector would also need to be aware of this.

[Pureon]

Mythos_Ruler, on 21 February 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

Why shouldn't ships be counted? I'm not following.

The enemy builds 1 warship and moves it far out to sea. The Iberian player can't win because it can't destroy the warship, even if it has total land control.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Pureon, on 21 February 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

The enemy builds 1 warship and moves it far out to sea. The Iberian player can't win because it can't destroy the warship, even if it has total land control.

Hmm... Then let's think of something other than giving them a warship. Perhaps some kind of fire ship? A ship that's on fire (slowly loses health) that damages enemy ships it encounters.

I just can't see exempting ships from ConquestCritical. They are units with an attack who can affect the outcome of the game. If they were essentially "dead" objects that had to be occupied by other units in order to function (like the original idea from 2003), then yeah. But as they are now, I can't see exempting them just to make island maps winnable for the Iberians.

Interesting discussion.

[Pureon]

Lets give the fishing boat and merchant ship garrison attack bonuses - You could fit 4 archers onto the Iberian fishing boat - even make the boat slightly bigger.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Pureon, on 21 February 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

Lets give the fishing boat and merchant ship garrison attack bonuses - You could fit 4 archers onto the Iberian fishing boat - even make the boat slightly bigger.

Not as sexy as a fire ship.

[Pureon]

Mythos_Ruler, on 21 February 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

Not as sexy as a fire ship.

I agree with that

[Mythos_Ruler]

Pureon, on 21 February 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

I agree with that

Once we have the trample damage aura feature, we could just do it with a trample aura.

[Pureon]

Mythos_Ruler, on 21 February 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

Once we have the trample damage aura feature, we could just do it with a trample aura.

I can picture it now

[Mythos_Ruler]

Pureon, on 21 February 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

I can picture it now

[Cassador_Chris]

Do we have any historical records of what the Iberians did with regards to navel vessels?

Also, I think its time that we all put our heads together and come up with a awesome Iberian amphibious assault strategy.

[hhyloc]

Mythos_Ruler, on 21 February 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

Not as sexy as a fire ship.

The Vandals also used galleys filled with brushwood and oil to destroy half of a Roman fleet anchored off Cape Bon during the Roman expedition in 469 AD.
So this is historically accurate... at least for the Vandals. I'm don't know if Iberians did use burning ships though.

Source: http://www.roman-emp...rticle-016.html

Edited by hhyloc, 22 February 2012 - 04:15 AM.

[L'ethu]

Perhaps these books could provide some information needed for us to understand the Iberian maritime activity:

1. Re-evaluating Iron Age maritime societies: the North West Iberian Peninsula by Rodrigo Pacheco Ruiz

2. Colonial Encounters in Ancient Iberia: Phoenician, Greek, and Indigenous Relations by Michael Dietler and Carolina Lopez-Ruiz

[wraitii]

quantumstate, on 21 February 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

This is reasonable but this should be made very clear, probably with a warning popping up if you pick them on a naval map. Also playing with random civs is pretty common so the random civ selector would also need to be aware of this.

This. This this this. It's okay if they don't have a warship, as long as they're slightly stronger on land... But then you absolutely need to make a "random for sea maps" options.