17 replies to this topic

[dathui]

Our resident linguist NaurwenT has showed some artistic talent so we decided to show you guys these things too

All pictures are just concept art to help us think and decide on things, so no promises of any kind whatsoever..like usual

Falathrim Horse


Falathrim Swords


Falathrim Shields

Edited by NaurwenT, 15 February 2006 - 04:07 PM.

[Beren IV]

Yay! We need concept art for the rest of the civs!

[Caedus]

So I clicked the link in tense anticipation and now there are no pictures...

I'll keep checking!

[Enarwaen]

updated Mikael's news post ... hope you'll forgive me - master news manager *ducks incoming *

[dathui]

link to her profile fixed

*throws a at the post-hijacking @#$%*

[Beren IV]

So the Teleri depend on swords, do they?


59 inches is a *very* long sword (that's almost five feet!), at least as a one-handed weapon. A typical sword you would hold in one hand, using a shield in the other, would be less than four feet.


Also, the Elves ride bareback, if I recall correctly.

[Caedus]

I've no idea about the technical details, but those pics look really good! Such concept pictures should be included in the game somewhere.

Did the Teleri have any horses at all? I've the odd idea that horses come from Aman, but I'm not sure of that though. Can anyone back this up or show that it is wrong?

[Clodhopper]

Those are gorgious concept pics!

[NaurwenT]

Thanks guys


Caedu

I think you are referring to the horses the Exiles brought from Aman, but that does not mean there were no horses in Middle Earth. The Sindar of Doriath had horses (I am positive Elu Thingol sent riders to protect Morwen on her way back North) - , and I believe its safe to assume these animals had absolutely nothing to do with those brought from the Blessed Realm
However, the light cavalry concept is just that, a concept. As far as I know nothing has been decided about the nature of the Falathrim warfare and the whole cavalry idea could be discarded altogether.

Also, a note on the side for Beren IV

First it is not 59 but 39 inches long, quite an standard and reasonable length for the type of blades I picture the Falathrim Elves using - that is, also, quite a reasonable length for a blade that could be described as the middle stage between Norman swords and Long swords.
It's got accurate measures for a blade designed for cutting, a long primary section, but also a distal tip for thrusting if necessary.

However, and this brings me to Beren's comment on the Elves of the Falas relying on swords for military purposes.... this not the case, and has not been stated to be so. I have posted a design for falathrim axes (just an initial concept, more development needed) since the Falathrim are, after all, Sindar, and we know Sindarin Elves used axes.
So, I would imagine Falathrim infantry using primarily axes, with swords as an auxiliary weapon to carry with them into battle (something I would also expect from archers and spearmen, and that makes sense when compared to mediaeval fighting)
This also shows in the way the swords are designed having the Falathrim using axes primarily, the "trooper" sword suits their fighting technique, and it gives them an edge (no pun intended ) with a distal tip that allows them thrusting.

And finally, Elves did not always ride bareback. Tolkien establishes they had "a way with animals", and its true that Legolas asked the Rohirrim to take the saddle and rein off Arod, but this was always the case,
"...but Curufin swerving stooped and lifted Lúthien to his saddle..." (The Silmarillion)
We know the Noldor did not ride bareback (and if they did not when they went hunting, least of all when in battle)
Another quote:
" 'You shall ride my horse,' said Glorfindel. 'I will shorten the stirrups up to the saddle-skins, and you must sit as tight as you can.(...) / LOTR"
Again a Noldo, but I believe that I am not mistaken to assume that yes, Elves (or at least some Elves) would sometimes ride bareback and were famous for that, but as said before, this was not always the case.

[Historicity]

Excellent. Nice to see TLA moving along again.



*edited* Hehehehe...

BTW... me and someone had an interesting convo...

HistoryGuy "FireFox Rulez" says:
NEW TLA CONCEPTS, woot... well, Design Concepts anyway

* says:
Holy @#$#@!

* says:
They actually updated!

HistoryGuy "FireFox Rulez" says:
LOL

HistoryGuy "FireFox Rulez" says:


HistoryGuy "FireFox Rulez" says:
I'm gonna copy+paste that in the forums (censored of course)

(not mentioning names) ... I promised... unless Adam or Dathui wants to know...

Edited by HistoryGuy, 22 July 2005 - 05:30 PM.

[Black Op]

NaurwenT is quite an artist. Hope to see more work from him.

[Beren IV]

Whoops, pardon me - I thought it said 59 inches!

I stand corrected with regard to the saddles. However, I notice that all of the Elves you mention using saddles are Noldor, and the Falathrim are not. I suppose we can argue this forever; Legolas is, of course, a Sinda, like the Falthrim, but he was raised as an Avara, so his preference for bare-back may be just an Avari-thing, or it could be common to all Moriquendi.

I am not so sure on our belief that the Sindar used exclusively axes. We know that Túrin and Beleg used swords (Túrin of course is not a Sinda or even an Elf, even in the version of the story where Beren is; nonetheless, Túrin was raised in Thingol's court and so would have Sindarin traditions, despite being mortal). Of course these were not ordinary swords. Nonetheless, I question why it was that the Sindar predominantly used axes. I can think of reasons why this might be the case, but I can also think of reasons why not.

[Enarwaen]

@Randy - you mean HER

[Caedus]

About the saddle thingie: it would seem far more logical to me, if Elves used saddles in warfare. It would give them more advantage, as saddles make for a better grip and can carry supplies, additional weapons, ammo (arrows) etcetera. Maybe even protection if they used light mail to cover their horses (I can imagine that the more important Elves did so). Of course I am generalising, but it seems a sound deduction to me. Especially Elves would care enough for their horses to be protected as much as possible in battle.

I believe the Histories might hold the answer to the weapons issue.

[NaurwenT]

Beren

Quote

I stand corrected with regard to the saddles. However, I notice that all of the Elves you mention using saddles are Noldor, and the Falathrim are not. I suppose we can argue this forever; Legolas is, of course, a Sinda, like the Falthrim, but he was raised as an Avara, so his preference for bare-back may be just an Avari-thing, or it could be common to all Moriquendi.

Yes, as I posted before, both examples correspond to Noldor, and we all know the Elves of the Falas are Sindarin-Teleri, but I dont think there is anything to argue about, IMO, since the moment we have proof that "Elves riding bareback" as a general statement is not accurate and leaves plenty of room for speculation.
In cases such as this, when it comes to recreate a fantasy world with the added handicap of lacking accurate information, we are left to decide how to carry on, how to fill in the gaps (sometimes reverting to attested information as an inspiration) and aware of Tolkien's love for history, how to use this in our favour without turning ME into a fancy-looking version of Europe's Middle Ages.
I try to keep that in mind when it comes to recreate every single thing from the world of Tolkien. And so, based on the lack of information regarding Falathrim horsemanship and the gap this creates, what we know of Noldorin riders, common sense and historical background of light cavalry, I have come up with the concept you have seen.
Now, after I have explained the reasons behind this creatve decision, all that is left for me to do is hope that the concept is of any help for the development of TLA.

Quote

I am not so sure on our belief that the Sindar used exclusively axes. We know that Túrin and Beleg used swords (Túrin of course is not a Sinda or even an Elf, even in the version of the story where Beren is; nonetheless, Túrin was raised in Thingol's court and so would have Sindarin traditions, despite being mortal). Of course these were not ordinary swords. Nonetheless, I question why it was that the Sindar predominantly used axes. I can think of reasons why this might be the case, but I can also think of reasons why not.

Focusing back on the Elves of the Falas, and in some way the Elves of the Hidden Kingdom, I wouldn't say they used exclusively axes, because we have proof they also used swords. But in the case of the Falathrim, and based on historical warfare, axes (contrary to what many believe) were the most common weapon for centuries until the use of swords become more popular.
Axes are weapons related to craftsmen, not many would have a sword, but every household would have at least one axe for chopping wood, craftmanship reasons aside. It can be argued that this is history, and ME belongs to a different realm, and so it does not relate, but I believe the Falathrim to be basically craftsmen, and it goes without saying that axes would be a basic tool to their ship-making craft, making them experts on how to use axes, leaving swords as an auxiliary weapon for infantry And perhaps a reason similar to this could be behind the use of axes by the Doriatrim, that and the fact they had dealings with the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains, and we all know their weapon of choice
Once again, this is just my opinion, and these are just concepts.

Quote

About the saddle thingie: it would seem far more logical to me, if Elves used saddles in warfare. It would give them more advantage, as saddles make for a better grip and can carry supplies, additional weapons, ammo (arrows) etcetera. Maybe even protection if they used light mail to cover their horses (I can imagine that the more important Elves did so). Of course I am generalising, but it seems a sound deduction to me. Especially Elves would care enough for their horses to be protected as much as possible in battle.

Caedu,
I agree . You are right hinting at the use of mail to protect horses, but this is not always the case when it comes to historical light cavalry However, if it is agreed the use of mail in horses, I will certainly be happy with the change too.
Btw, this was just a basic concept for a Falathrim rider, I picture their captain's horse looking different.

[Beren IV]

Quote

But in the case of the Falathrim, and based on historical warfare, axes (contrary to what many believe) were the most common weapon for centuries until the use of swords become more popular.

Yes, and for several reasons: (1) Axes are cheaper, requiring less metal, in part because they require less metalwork and thus less oxidation and in part because the haft is made out of wood; (2) Axes are more effective at piercing armor than swords are; (3) it takes a good blacksmith a month to make a good sword, and a less competant blacksmith just can't do it, whereas by contrast a 'standard' blacksmith can make an axehead in a week. As a result, axes were the predominant close-in melee weapon actually manufactured for war in the Middle Ages and earlier (less common than the spear, which was for distance work). Only the nobles, or societies of wealthy citizen-soldiers (e.g. the Greeks), or particularly wealthy empires (e.g. the Romans) really ever depended on swords, and even among them some used axes or impact weapons in combat because of their effectiveness against armor.

I generally see Elves as not being constrained by the time it takes to become a good enough blacksmith to make a sword, or by the time it would take such a blacksmith to make one. As we all know, the Elves have plenty of time on their hands, being immortal. Moreover, while an axe is more effective than a sword against an armored opponent, a sword is more effective against an unarmored one, since a sword is more flexible and easier to swing and block with (you watch a swordsman swing multiple strikes, using the momentum of the recoil to swing the next strike, and you will see what I mean). This sort of graceful, artful motion that swords allow is something that I think would appeal to Elves, they being artistically-minded creatures. As a result, I would think that their preferred melee weapon, their favored melee weapon, would be the sword, rather than the axe.

All of that said, axes are more effective against armored opponents, and we do know that an awful lot of Orcs wore armor, and the need for metal might be a problem for some Elvish cultures, especially the Nandor and the Avari.

My best guess is that the Elves would use both swords and axes as the situation called for. All in all, whether we draw the graphics in TLA including swords, axes, or some with each, is more up to our aesthetic sense than anything else.

Edited by Beren IV, 24 July 2005 - 08:51 PM.

[NaurwenT]

It's always great to come across people who know about weaponry and armoury.
And also your post saves me having to elaborate more on why axes appeal to me as a good weapon, in this case for the Falathrim (apart from the obvious attested mention of these weapons in Tolkien's works).

When you say axes are more effective agains armoured oponents, you mean mail or plate-armour? Because an axe would be no much use agains ring-mail clad enemies, but a well-crafted ridge on a sword would make a difference.

Quote

My best guess is that the Elves would use both swords and axes as the situation called for.

That's exactly why I would have both weapons present, and concepts show both axes and swords.

[Caedus]

NaurwenT, on Jul 24 2005, 04:56 PM, said:

Caedu,
I agree . You are right hinting at the use of mail to protect horses, but this is not always the case when it comes to historical light cavalry However, if it is agreed the use of mail in horses, I will certainly be happy with the change too.
Btw, this was just a basic concept for a Falathrim rider, I picture their captain's horse looking different.

I completely agree when you say that horsemail wasn't used for all types of cavalry. In fact, I think it's more an exception than a general rule for Falathrim horses to have mail, because it takes much resources to create it and it removes a lot of speed and manoevrability from the horse. So I figure that scout horses naturally don't have armor and light cavalry, like you said, likewise not.

But as captains and other leaders are more important and thus more targeted by the enemy, they could very well have mail for their horses.

Maybe horsemail should be a technology upgrade?

And a little artistic comment: brilliant and very clear pictures! I believe they will surely be of much use to the team!