34 replies to this topic

[CrazyThumbs]

Just wondering how up to date the unit list is in the features section. Doesn't seem like it would be too off now but I suspect it probably has changed a little.

Came up with an idea for the Orc Swordsman, if its still that.
Instead of calling it a swordsman and limiting it to a scimatar, why not change the name to Orc Warrior, or something similar, and give them randomized weapons. The orcs weren't the most organized or standarized army,(though they were to some extent)
Along with the randomized armor they could have a spear, axe, or scimatar, with certain stats attributed to each weapon, axe has better hack damage than spear etc... The Orcs did prefer most weapons so long as they were ugly to look at.

It would make the Forces of Darkness feel more horde like, and a company (still in game right?) of Swordsman/Warriors with different weapons could be a well balanced and effective force against different types of units.

Just some random thoughts I had on the game.

[Enarwaen]

the unit lists have been reworked - so the current ones are not 100% accurate anymore.

the concept of having Orc Warriors has already found it's way into the Design Document - we are going to have warrior units that can switch weapons - also with the prop randomizing (as you can see on 0 A.D.'s screenshots) we can do a pretty generic looking orc horde

[CrazyThumbs]

What will the weapon switches be? Sword and bow, or a different combination, and is it player or AI controlled, or both?

And are company fomrations still in, one of my favorite features in the game.

[Deacon_Raptor]

Or even perhaps have different combat modes for each squad, allowing for a very diverse army that could adapt to almost anything quickly.

[CrazyThumbs]

You mean different modes within a company? I think fomations, unit stances and a mix of units could do the same thing. Elaborate a little more on what you mean.

[Deacon_Raptor]

Sure. I don't know exactly what this "company" idea is - so I'm going to assume it's like the basic infantry units in Rise of Legends. There are 9 individual soldiers, that you control as one group, or, one "unit." They all move the same way, etc.

Now what if the idea went a step further. What if, possibly via a hotkey, say control, you could select an individual soldier from that company. And furthermore, what if each soldier thus had, say, an Archer mode, a Pike mode, and a Sword mode (or something similar).

Obviously the idea far from perfect, since that would require godly amounts of micro to take full advantage of, but it would allow for a tremendous amount of flexibility - no matter what the enemy threw at you, your units could adapt to counter it.

[Rinion]

The randomisation sounds wonderful. I remember they were going to do that for BFME, but they never got round to it.

[CrazyThumbs]

Well what do you expect from EA

Deacon, a company is a group of soldeirs, the number of troops varies depending on how many you want in the company. You need a captain and flag carrier in the group in order to from a company.
I always pictured a company at around 20-30 units.

But say you switched modes with the soldiers, what would be the point of building any other type of unit if it can switch between, archer, sword etc....

[Deacon_Raptor]

Well, I wouldn't envision the Orcs having a large number of units anyway. Think about it - if we're talking the "traditional" Orcs (not Saruman-bred Uruk-Hai) - there's pretty much your Grunt, and your Warg Rider....maybe a Cheiftain type unit as well, but that's about it. There wasn't a great variety of Orcish troops, but they *were* highly adaptable.

Obviously if a civ only has three or four military units, that's a problem. I would envision the Orcs having a very unique playstyle, extremely different from the other races, and also focusing on adaptability (which they certainly did according to Tolkien).

Of course, another problem with that idea is that at what point is there even a reason to have a company, instead of individual units ala the AoE or WC series.

[CrazyThumbs]

Companies I think give higher morale, and expeirnce is gained in companies. There are also upgrades that benefit companies and not individual soldeirs.

Orcs do have alot of units, the Hunter that can capture other civs units, the standard warrior, archer, captain, warg rider, trolls, along with siege weapons and a few others. Just about as much as the other races.

I think it would be better to have randomized weapons for the orc warriors, since there would be alot less micro involved, and along with the random armor and props, it would give the Orcs a more horde like feeling.

[Deacon_Raptor]

Yeah, but the problem with just randomizing it is that assuming specific weapons have specific bonuses, then it's a mixed bag with whatever you buy. You could desperately need anti-cavalry, but just keep getting sword-mode infantry that get mowed over.

I don't know about Trolls - except for a few that had been captured and presumably "trained" by Sauron...and of course the Moria Cave Troll is also an exception...we never really hear anything about Trolls and Wild Orcs working together (Wild Orcs being those not controlled by Sauron - those in the Misty Mts. in the Hobbit come immediately to mind).

Hunter I can see, although it kind of stretches the boundaries. Still, it depends on the age-old question of how far do you push the books. If you don't push them a bit, you end up with each race having an archer, an infantry, a cavlary, and a siege, and that's it - because really that's about all that each race had according to Tolkien. Players like to have lots of options though, so it's inevitable that the limits of canon will need to be pushed a least a bit.

[CrazyThumbs]

All of the units I listed are in the unit list on the main site. And are featured in the books.

And, as you said if you need infantry to counter calvary, and all you get is swordsman, well thats the only option you would have gotten with the old unit list on the site.
Orcs are relatively cheap so its not much of a waste considering that you can just make two more for each one lost, and overwhelm the enemy with numbers, which the orcs had and used to their advantage.

Perhaps each unit can switch between weapons, but it's a random pair of weapons, Axe spear, sword mace, spear sword etc...

[Rinion]

It would be interesting to include all of the Orc subtypes: Goblins, Snaga, Uruk, Uruk-hai and so forth. That would add a nice variety to the gameplay.

[Deacon_Raptor]

True, but I'd like to see a "Wild Orcs" race - Orcs out from Sauron/Saruman's thumb. For example the Orcs in the Misty Mountains in the Hobbit, I already mentioned. I seriously doubt they were under anyone's control. It's interesting because in the Hobbit it seems almost like Tolkien is trying to establish the Orcs as a separate evil power, aside from Sauron, or "the Necromancer" as he's known in the Hobbit (which is interesting in and of itself). But by the time the LotR rolled around, he seems to have changed his mind. All the Orcs in LotR are under either Saruman or Sauron's control IIRC.

[CrazyThumbs]

The Mountain Orcs are already and listed as a non-player race on the civilazations page. They will start of with good relations with Mordor and other evil civs but you cannot control them.

Search indepent races and player races and it will go more in depth on how it works.

[Deacon_Raptor]

Hmm....couldn't find anything on it tbh

I think I can grasp enough of the idea though - played some other games that have independant races.

I'm unsure how much on the site is still valid though. Also, I can't imagine it would be that much work to make the civs listed as non-player able to be controlled by players. You can't tell me you wouldn't love to steamroll someone with Hobbits

Again, assuming that the info on there is still valid, there's unit and building lists even. It wouldn't be that big of a deal to make them playable IMO. AoE2 was arguably the best RTS game of all time because it had civs and civs and civs. Anyway we're pretty far off-topic now, lol - so unless someone OTHER than you or I has something to add I'm gonna shut up now.

[Sukkit]

Quote

All the Orcs in LotR are under either Saruman or Sauron's control IIRC.

I think the Mountain Orcs remained almost independent in LotR. They join the company of Isengard and Mordor Orcs merely by chance, because they're simply chasing the Fellowship seeking revenge, and they stay with the other Orcs simply because it's a dangerous and hostile land and they would like to survive their trip across Rohan. However, they don't like the idea of going to Isengard.

[Deacon_Raptor]

Good point, but I meant those that were featured. The Orcs from the Misty Mountains for example, or from Gundabad, were just forgotten about. Maybe Tolkien decided that they had played a large enough role in the Hobbit and were wiped out after the Battle of 5 Armies.

Indeed, when you think about it that way, it makes sense they weren't in LotR much if at all - I don't remember them showing up in LotR tbh...I think it was all either Isengard or Morder.

[Beren IV]

It seems to me generally that evil races such as the Orcs and Trolls are around and will bow down to an appropriate evil overlord if one is available and can exert their influence over them. This means that the Orcs, even the Orcs of Mordor, are largely independent early in the Third Age, but as more and more evil overlords show up, tribes get less and less so, with one big relapse when the Witch-King of Angmar is driven from the north.

For the moment, we are focusing on the First Age, and I don't think it's possible to be evil of any kind in the First Age without having something to do with Morgoth, either in the case of following his teaching to carry around weapons (the Noldor) or actually being at least 'doing business' with Him or His agents. Nonetheless I see a lot of Orc tribes even in the First Age as flying their own banners, not the Sable Unblazoned that Morgoth's own strength uses.

I am glad to see that the randomization factor is being used, though. I might note that there are a lot of uses for this sort of feature: individual units could easily be given radically different cosmetic features and so on. Want units to be of different generations? Give some white hair. Want to emphasize a particular faction's composite geneology? Make their hair colors vary. Want to have the occasional *ahem* young-boy-who-looks-suspiciously-like-the-princess among the Rohirrim captains? Take the beard off and give "him" a higher-pitched voice (you can even do this if you aren't imagining a woman with a like mind to Eowyn in disguise).

[Aldandil]

For some reason I often think of Orcs as favoring the spear, but I don't really know where I got that idea.


Trolls are mentioned as working with "The Forces of Evil" as TLA calls them, in the First Age as well as in the Third. Gothmog in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad had a guard consisting of trolls. And they were fighting during the daytime, so they can't have been Stone-Trolls.

I agree that it was pretty difficult for evil forces to act independently of Morgoth in the First Age, at least in the Beleriand and Eriador areas where TLA concentrates. There were the giant spiders in Nan Dungortheb, but they don't seem to have strayed far from home very much. But there wasn't really anybody else -- pretty much anybody who was willing/interested in wiping out other life-forms or causing massive destruction was taken in at some point by Morgoth's recruiting attempts and offers of power.

I don't see there being separate Orc tribes in the First Age, though. After Morgoth was Chained, Sauron quickly took over controlling and breeding them. I don't think they had any opportunity to actually run away and form independent tribes until Morgoth was finally defeated in the War of Wrath, and Sauron almost repented and spent some years pretending to act like a normal Maia, or whatever he was doing.

Beren IV, on Jun 25 2006, 09:28 PM, said:

I am glad to see that the randomization factor is being used, though. I might note that there are a lot of uses for this sort of feature: individual units could easily be given radically different cosmetic features and so on. Want units to be of different generations? Give some white hair. Want to emphasize a particular faction's composite geneology? Make their hair colors vary. Want to have the occasional *ahem* young-boy-who-looks-suspiciously-like-the-princess among the Rohirrim captains? Take the beard off and give "him" a higher-pitched voice (you can even do this if you aren't imagining a woman with a like mind to Eowyn in disguise).

I'm not sure old white-haired Mortals really be in an army. Salt-and-pepper middle-aged dudes, though.

But I really like the idea of varying appearance, though. Hair color, height, clean-shaven versus bearded versus too-young-to-have-a-beard, just different clothes and armor if they can't afford identical-looking spiffy uniform armor. Or something. I don't know much about pre-industrial army uniforms and armor and suchlike. But with some forces (I'm thinking the Haladin especially) you could even have an even mix of male and female warriors. Cavalry could have horses or wargs of differing colors. Even with less "composite" groups, having at least some variety of appearance would be a very good thing. Even subtle differences would be an improvement over a clone-like arrangement where all of a given unit are identical.
With more militia-like groups, especially some of the minor Civs like the Mountain Orcs or Dunlendings or Beornings, a random mixture of armor and weapon types would be especially appropriate. And it would highlight cultural and economic differences between them and more organised armies, like say the Noldor, who would be more likely to go for uniform armor, blazoned shields, fancy heraldry, etc.
Gah, I can't write clearly.

And the civilian units could be even more randomised, even for civilizations with very organized-looking armies, the people could be fairly different from one another. Such a randomization might make it easier to have both male and female civilians, as well.

Are you going to have the wolfrider units work the way Night Elf cavalry works in WC III, where the animal and rider are separate units that you couple together during play? Wargs I think could exist as independent units, they are intelligent (or semi-intelligent) after all. Would it be possible to make the randomised appearance of the warg, and of the orc, carry over into the combined appearance of the wolfrider unit? Likewise, would individual warriors/archers/whoevers retain their randomised appearances when grouped together into groups or companies? That would be cool.

Could you even give some of the buildings, especially the basic House units that Civilians live in, varying appearances as well? That would also be cool.

I don't know how hard it would be to actually pull off, though. Has any other computer war game every done this sort of thing? This may be a dumb question, I know pretty much nothing about programming.

Edited by Ellen, 06 July 2006 - 02:11 AM.