127 replies to this topic

[Abadu]

Where i dowload the jabber?

EDIT:I think we Can drop portugal,wallaChia,switzerland and denmark for now.What do you think about it?

Edited by Abadu, 11 December 2006 - 04:38 PM.

[Belisarivs]

Do you use Miranda IM?
You can use jabber in it.
Or see this http://www.jabber.org/user/userguide/

As I said, do any nation you want. We could discuss them unit by unit.
Choose one nation, than suggest some units, how they work, look and how important they are and then someone can comment your idea (not only me, but I don't think, that someone else will join discussion).

[Abadu]

Ok,I just think that we dont need to use the "periods" sytem(since 0 AD dont use it),It would also make a lot of nations harder to do
I'm reading the blender tutorial,at least now i know how to rotate
And lets dircurs the english units(say your ideas about their units and about my researched ones)

[Belisarivs]

Well, I don't see much difference between periods and 0AD system. Simply, units of more age would respond to appropriate devel level of city ... Ages simply do not have to respond to certain time period but rather represent development level each nation currently is in.

We must also count with fact, that there is certain possibility of Total War style implemented in Part II or so. So let's count with it.

How many of periods/devel levels will be available 3 or 4?

I guess 4.

So there is my list of ideas (just names and basic descriptions).

level one:
Javelinman
Fyrd - basic soldier with spear, nothing unique
Archer - name suggests all
Saxon Axeman
Scout Cavalry

level two:
Saxon Axeman disappears
Norman infantry appears
Fyrd -> Medium Spearman
Archer -> Longbowman
Light Cavalry appears
Norman Knight appears
Javelinman disappears
Billman appears

level three:
Light Cavalry -> Hobelar
Norman Knight -> Royal Knight
Longbowman -> Yeoman
Norman infantry -> Dismounted Knight
Billman -> Heavy Billman

What do you think?

Edited by Belisarivs, 15 December 2006 - 05:08 PM.

[Abadu]

4 periods sounds good,but for more hard civs(portugal,denmark and others),3 periods would make the thgings more easy.I think we can put together your 1 and 2 periods,what do you think?
Yes,that looks good,i would only sugest to call the light spearman "Fyrd"(anglo-dane spearman),and have a saxon axeman upgrade called "housecarl"(anglo-dane royal bodyguard).I would also sugest to have a billmen upgrade( heavy billmen) and,if possible,to add a sowrd infantry(man at arms)
When we finish the english dirscusion,i will update them and post my ideas for spain

Edited by Abadu, 14 December 2006 - 04:06 PM.

[Belisarivs]

Abadu, on Dec 14 2006, 04:23 PM, said:

4 periods sounds good,but for more hard civs(portugal,denmark and others),3 periods would make the thgings more easy.I think we can put together your 1 and 2 periods,what do you think?

Yeah. I did it.

Abadu, on Dec 14 2006, 04:23 PM, said:

Yes,that looks good,i would only sugest to call the light spearman "Fyrd"(anglo-dane spearman),

You are reading my thoughts. I wanted to do it to but forgot.

Abadu, on Dec 14 2006, 04:23 PM, said:

and have a saxon axeman upgrade called "housecarl"(anglo-dane royal bodyguard).

I'm not much into it. Perhaps we could simply rename Saxon Axeman into Thegn, or so. Because 1st period (or dev level) is the Saxon and next is Norman. Saxons didn't fight alongside Normans. Simply, Norman conquest meant disappearance of Saxon style of warfare.

Also Housecarles were the wery elite soldiers able to hold line against any melee unit pretty well (their axes killed three or four horses under William at Hastings). And let's not forget, that after Hastings they fled from England and joined Byzantine Varangian Guard which were strong indeed.

Abadu, on Dec 14 2006, 04:23 PM, said:

I would also sugest to have a billmen upgrade( heavy billmen) and,if possible,to add a sowrd infantry(man at arms)

Yeah. I thought about it, too. Good point.

Abadu, on Dec 14 2006, 04:23 PM, said:

When we finish the english dirscusion,i will update them and post my ideas for spain

So, what do you think now?

[Abadu]

Now its good,but will you add the housecarls or not?
And do england have the need of a javelineer?i mean,i dont think that the javelin was a popular saxon weapon(correct me if im wrong)
Tonight i will post my ideas for spain

EDIT:Here what i tought for Spain:

-Level one:
Fanthja(visigoth spearman)
Aihws ga-drauhts(visigothic horseman)
Uriliggs(visigothic swordsman)
-Level two:
Visigothic units desapear
Andalusian horseman
Moorish archer
Almughavar
Christian Spearmen
Christian knight
-Level three
Andalusian horseman>jinete
Morish archer disapear
Almughavar desapear
Crossbowman
Rodelero
Christian knight>Conquistador
Santiago knight
Christian Spearmen>Tercio pikeman

And for Portugal

-Level one:
Suebi axeman
Suebi noble
Suebi clubman
-Level two:
Suebi units desapear
Andalusian horseman(represents the light cavalry from the arab province of al-andalus)
Cavaleiro-vilão(knights choosed by the municipality to fight as vassals in name of the king)
Besteiro(crossbowman,usewd a lot in portuguese armies)
Arqueiro(archer,with moorish influence)
Peão(foot soldier,here uses a sword)
Lanceiro(spearman)
-Level three
Arqueiro desapear
Andalusian horseman desapear
Columbrineiro(arquebusier,Portugal was one of the first contrys to use gunpowder weapons)
Cavaleiro-vilão>Cavaleiro de cristo(a knight from the ordem de Cristo(Christ order))
Mounted crossbowman
Besteiro>Besteiro do conto(crossbowmans provided by a sytem where every municipality should provide crossbowmans to fight for the king)
Lanceiro>Piqueiro de avis(A pikeman who fight in the ordem de aviz(order of avis)


What do you think?(more native names come latter)

Edited by Abadu, 22 December 2006 - 04:32 AM.

[Belisarivs]

I'm thinking about that
unit x disappears

Perhaps solution by upgrade is better one. Because Norman infantry didn't fight alongside Housecarles. But there will be problem for example with that Housecarle -> Norman infantry upgrade. In fact, it would be rather downgrade as Housecarles were considered best infantry of that time. That was what I wanted to point out.

Unit lists are fine. Could you give brief description of units with less common name. I don't know them much. I understand names of Spanish ones (as these aren't as native), but some of Portuguese are unknown to me.

[Abadu]

Well,i only upgrade when both are "similar"(sword infantry>better sword infantry).I would not upgrade Housecarle -> Norman infantry because both used different weapons,and,as you said,housecarls where elite.Instead i would create a single unit of housecarles
And i gave some descriptions to the portuguese units,are they good?Any unit sugestion for portugal or spain?

Edited by Abadu, 16 December 2006 - 03:56 PM.

[Belisarivs]

I wanted to make English in first period almost heavy infantry only (perhaps they shouldn't have archers at all, as they only rarely used them, but javelinman should be used).
In next period they would rely almost entirely on knights.
Last period would represent English experience from wars with Scotland where dismounted knights and infantry form solid line and protection of Archers and knights perform flanking attacks but are no longer core of the army.

This is rather rare in Western Europe to have army which consists of balanced troop types.

Well, I think, that Spanish and perhaps Portuguese didn't have such balanced army and relied more on Cavalry.
That is what I'd like to see in our mod. Civs with strengths and weaknesses. To reflect historical accuracy rather than balance of troops.
Am I right? Is that possible.

[Belisarivs]

About Spanish.
I'd rename Christian knight to Knight of Calatrava or Bellatore.
Some Languedoc Swordsmen and Asturian footmen won't hurt, too.

[Abadu]

Well,in the last english period,the main unit should be the longbows,with some cavalry and billmen to protect archers
Also,we can try to give a unique bonus(as in AoE III) to the civs,for example,english houses should generate archers(to represent that the citizens where trained to use the longbow)
What i know of spanish armys is that they where mainly HInfantry,and some noble knights,some crossbowmans where used too.Portuguese armies where like spanish ones,but with more crossbowmans
Should i give the andalusian horsemans and granadine jinetes to spain,portugal and moors or keep them for the moors only?
And i will rename the knight,but what are Languedoc Swordsmens and Asturian footmens?

[Belisarivs]

Well, I don't have such deep knowledge about units of Iberian peninsula. Just want to point out, that it would be better to not to make nations have all types of units if these didn't have them.

I mean, it would be cool to make nations as they really were. With own real advantages and disadvantages.

About those Jinetes. If these nations really used them in considerable numbers, than they should have them.

Those Languedoc Swordsmen (infantry) and Asturian footmen (spearmen) are just influence of modification for Medieval - Total War named Medmod.

[Abadu]

Some of the arab units represent the arab influence(spain used jinetes,but im not sure about portugal),but i think i will keep them and give some christian units to the moors(christian crossbowmans where used)
I agree about the diferent military opf the nations,but what you thnik about a "special" bonus to the nations?
And about the units:Do you think that my iberian civs have all kinds of units?

EDIT:I updated England,i just changed the light cavalry to hobilar and hobilar to demi-lancer,what do you think?

Edited by Abadu, 20 December 2006 - 01:40 AM.

[Abadu]

Here are my thoughts for France:

-Level one
Peasant skirmisher
Spearman
Scout
Paladin
Axe trower
-Level two
Axe trower and Peasant skirmisher desapear
Paladin>Noble knight
Crossbowman
Man-at-arms
Templar
-Level three
Noble knight>Gendarme
Crossbowman>pavisse crossbowman
Spearman>Pikeman
Arquebusier
French horse archer

What do you think about it?

[Belisarivs]

There is one big problem.
First of all, it would be best if you created your jabber account (use some client from those I already suggested) and then we should discuss this:

How level development (0AD style) and periods (Total War style) works.

Have a look at this.

Dev level simply means, that in lower stages you have some units available and with higher levels you gain access to new upgrades and units.

This works fine in AoK and perhaps in 0AD, too. However, there is problem with fact, that our mod covers quite long period of time during which warfare underwent evolution at faster pace and not always towards improvements.

That is why it won't work well in our mod. There it goes against realism a lot.
See that problem with Thegn/Huscarle to Norman infantry upgrade. In history it happened. But Norman infantry provided rather supporting role and it was heavy cavalry which provided main striking force. That upgrade simply meant downgrade rather than upgrade as Huscarles were superior in fighting skill to Norman infantry a lot.

We must discuss this further via IM and post our decision here. until that any research of nations is useless.

Simply, should we use dev level? Then most barbaric units won't fit there because they were strong ingeed and much of such upgrades will be more often considered as dowgrades.

I had a look at your unit list. Cool work. I like it.

Could you please create that jabber account?

It is quite simple. Download some client. Then add new account. Select jabber. Type your JID. It consists of your_nick@your_server.domain - it looks like e-mail address.

your_nick - select at will
your_server.domain - find server which provides jabber in Brazil (it is bes for lowest latencies), but if you fail, you can use jabber.org

There usually is no need to register your account, you'll be registered automatically. Just search some servers which provide jabber account in Brazil first.

I'd do it for you, but I don't speak Portuguese so I can't help. But it is easy.

I've fond some links for you. But don't blame me if these contain trash. I don't understand it at all and just guess that these are in Portuguese and could be useful.

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabber - this seems to be best
http://www.freelists.org/archives/jabber-b...5/msg00049.html
http://guj.codigoliv...ki/?q=node/feed

BTW, how much does Brazilian Portuguese differ from
original?

[Abadu]

Ok,i already installed the jabber,created my account and added you.Lets discurs the ideas there
And unfortunally,i couldnt find a brazilian server,so i used the jabber.org
The diferences between the brazilian portuguese to the original are more names of things(verbs have less diferences,i think)
And merry cristhmas to you!

[Belisarivs]

Abadu, on Dec 24 2006, 06:01 PM, said:

Ok,i already installed the jabber,created my account and added you.Lets discurs the ideas there
And unfortunally,i couldnt find a brazilian server,so i used the jabber.org

Fine.
There is problem I forgot, we both live each on the other side of Earth. Which time-zone you are? I am GMT+1.

Abadu, on Dec 24 2006, 06:01 PM, said:

The diferences between the brazilian portuguese to the original are more names of things(verbs have less diferences,i think)

Thank you for info.

Abadu, on Dec 24 2006, 06:01 PM, said:

And merry cristhmas to you!

Yeah, thanks. Marry Xmas to you, too.

[Belisarivs]

Mod development wasn't ceased (if you are afraid because of recent inactivity here).
I just have to pass several semestral tests.
Also I and Abadu am waiting for new subforum to be opened so we can sort our things out better.

[MrBlack103]

If you're looking for ideas, the Age of Chivalry mod for AoK is full of some great stuff