105 replies to this topic

[Belisarivs]

I can't resist to ask what will be purpose of indians in this mod.
To give opportunity to the player to test how much time it will take his Husaria to cut them to the banners?
Will anybody be willing to play indians even though they are heavily technologically inferior to europeans?
I'd make natives to provide some auxiliary mercenary troops and that would be all.
Indians proved to be unable to match their european opponents in open battle unless heavily superior in numbers.
You'll have to screw realism and make indians more powerful so they are able to be somehow on par with their opponents (but it looks weird, have a look at AoK, Aztecs didn't use pikes, xbows and trebuchets, and even Aztec champion looks weird, needless to say, that jaguar warriors, despite their skill, simply couldn't beat heavy spanish infantry with such ease), allow them to heavily outnumber their enemy (but you'll have to face limitations of game engine) or expect them to lose anytime (which is rather bad idea).
Tactics to beat enemy by exhaustive skirmishes could work against AI, but definitely not against human player who will just avoid this and lay siege of players city which will turn in open battle and force indians to defend against besieger and thus lose advantage of skirmish tactics.

[Abadu]

Well,i think that the indians where more "corageus"(fight untill die,dont rout) them the europeans;The indians used guerrila tatics,they knew about the terrian,since its their homeland;But i dont see why the coundt be full nations,look:In 0AD,why will be ablle to kill the romans ever time with gauls,we will be able to make the perisans kil alexander,we can make a battlew betwen iberians and persians!The strategy games are always about this:WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF the persians win gaugamela?What if the gauls kill Caesar?What if the aztecs didnt think that Cortez was good?What if the incas wherent affected bu diseases?
For me,there isnt problem in make them full nations,i mean,0 AD will have many "special" tatics,so what would be the problem if the indians had some tatical advantages?Take a look at the AoE III 3 full native civs,are they too much historical incorrete?

EDIT:What you need to make to they fix your topic?i have a idea for another mod...

Edited by Abadu, 11 November 2006 - 02:15 PM.

[Belisarivs]

I don't believe, that indians were more courageous. I'd say, that europeans were far more disciplined.
I'm not against indians in mod, but wonder why. I didn't play AoE III.
That "What if" is good, but that isn't what I want to point out. Indians were just much weaker than europeans and whole Aztec empire was conquered by rather small contingent of soldiers. Unlike Gauls or Persians, who weren't deffeated because they were weak. They were deffeated because they stood against most briliant commanders of the world. Gauls had horsemen and strong warriors and Persians had exellent cavalry. What had indians? They didn't know wheel, iron and horses. They were just naked men with wooden or obsidian clubs and spears. Yes, there was military class of skilled warriors, but Europeans had them too and all those technological advantages.
Why should indians have tactical advantage? Yes, they were defending own land, but in MP, they will also have to attack the opponent. And he will use scouts a lot, too. Which military units will indians have available? Variation of spearman and bowman and perhaps some javelinman and clubman. Nothing else. No cavalry, no gunpowder, no cuirasses and no other metal equipment.
I want to point out, that creation of 1 texture needs lot of time. When you want to have at least 3 variations, it takes three times more. And you have only one unit. And what now? You want at least 5-10 different units for each nation. Time consumption is growing even further. And, you plan 20-30 nations each with different units.
Do you get what I want to point out? What was done untill now? Nothing. Yes, your research is valuable, no doubt about it, but simply, texturing itself is pretty heavy and time consuming. And indians are imho waste of time for now. I'd concentrate on 5 key nations, discuss them heavily, get some skills and make them perfect. Then will time show if it is possible to achieve more.
I don't want to say, that indians are waste of time and useless at all. But want to point out, that none actually is working on mod (I mean creation of models and textures) and expectations are too high for now. You can feel very unhappy with mod progress because there is planned too many nations which will take ages to create. I'd feel happier with two perfectly made nations than with bunch of unfinished and incorrectly depicted ones. That is my point of view.

Edited by Belisarivs, 11 November 2006 - 03:06 PM.

[Abadu]

I understand your point,its very hard to create models,i know,please,forgive me for be unable to work with graphics
But hey,im just pointing ideas,i mean,its best to have everthing planned early,dont you think?
But talking about indians:You said that the aztecs where conquered by few spanish soldier,but you forget about the thousands of tlaxcalan allies,the bad king,the legend of quetzalcoat and the diseases(strong point);You said that they coudnt last for many time,but the mapuches fought for 300 years against the spanish.You also said that they had only stone weapons,but the incas had cooper and the tlaxcalans where starting to produce metals(i forgot the english word) when the conquistadors arrive.Some indians had cavalry(sioux,mapuche,iroquois) and a lot had gunpowder(mapuche,sioux,hawaiians,iroquois,huron,tupi,almost even tribe that resisted for a short time had at least some people with muskets and european weapons that where traded with the europeans)
We dont need to make them ful nations,we can make them as AoE,which you build a trading post in a settlement and can train 1-2 units and research 3 techs,but we need to make it better,lets say,with a AI(They could forge alliances,more techs,more units...).Just few natives would work as full nations(The incas and aztecs,but the people forget the incas all the time).I know that you work very hard to make the models,the problem is that few people know 0 AD,so few people modding
Remenber,these are only ideas,everthing can change,ok?

EDIT:We can start with few nations and latter add more
And what nations you think that are the most important to start?What of my sugested civs you didnt like?what civs you sugest?
EDIT2:For make your work more easy,cant you just edit already made blender models?
And isnt there any other graphic software?because i dowloaded blender AGAIN and it continues how i configured

Edited by Abadu, 11 November 2006 - 06:03 PM.

[Belisarivs]

Abadu, on Nov 11 2006, 06:35 PM, said:

I understand your point,its very hard to create models,i know,please,forgive me for be unable to work with graphics

There's no need to apologize. Actually, I'd be happy to have more enthsiasts like you in team.
And BTW, I can handle modelling well. It is 2D graphics (GIMP, Photoshop ...) which is rather easy, but time consuming. So, if you can do it, or anybody else ...

Abadu, on Nov 11 2006, 06:35 PM, said:

But hey,im just pointing ideas,i mean,its best to have everthing planned early,dont you think?

I agree, but unfortunatelly, there is none to work on it. And also keep in mind, that your posts will be lost due to other posts which will come after them.

Abadu, on Nov 11 2006, 06:35 PM, said:

But talking about indians:You said that the aztecs where conquered by few spanish soldier,but you forget about the thousands of tlaxcalan allies,the bad king,the legend of quetzalcoat and the diseases(strong point);

Yes but Cortez also faced great number of Aztecs in several battles and caused them heavy losses. Lack of cannons and other gonpowder, iron and cavalry as well as usefull navy is terrible disadvantage.

Abadu, on Nov 11 2006, 06:35 PM, said:

You said that they coudnt last for many time,but the mapuches fought for 300 years against the spanish.

But they didn't face them in open battle. It was rathe gurrilla warfare IMHO.

Abadu, on Nov 11 2006, 06:35 PM, said:

You also said that they had only stone weapons,but the incas had cooper and the tlaxcalans where starting to produce metals(i forgot the english word) when the conquistadors arrive.

Really? I didn't know that. But I believe, that it still alcked much in quality and quantity compared to Spanish curasses and swords.

Abadu, on Nov 11 2006, 06:35 PM, said:

Some indians had cavalry(sioux,mapuche,iroquois) and a lot had gunpowder(mapuche,sioux,hawaiians,iroquois,huron,tupi,almost even tribe that resisted for a short time had at least some people with muskets and european weapons that where traded with the europeans)

That is true. But they still didn't have much of them.

Abadu, on Nov 11 2006, 06:35 PM, said:

We dont need to make them ful nations,we can make them as AoE,which you build a trading post in a settlement and can train 1-2 units and research 3 techs,but we need to make it better,lets say,with a AI(They could forge alliances,more techs,more units...).Just few natives would work as full nations(The incas and aztecs,but the people forget the incas all the time).

Yes. That is what I had in mind. Actually, it would be trully cool to to depict conquest of Aztec empire. But it would mean to choose one of those three paths.

Abadu, on Nov 11 2006, 06:35 PM, said:

I know that you work very hard to make the models,the problem is that few people know 0 AD,so few people modding

Actually, I don't work on it much. I had some problems with PC and my University draws my attention. I hope I will be able to do some work in xmas.

Abadu, on Nov 11 2006, 06:35 PM, said:

Remenber,these are only ideas,everthing can change,ok?

I know. But simply, I didn't like an idea of indians slaughtered by europeans. But more I think about it, more I start to like it. I'd love to depict Tenochtitlan or Macchu Piccu.

Abadu, on Nov 11 2006, 06:35 PM, said:

EDIT:We can start with few nations and latter add more

I'd suggest that. Start with small steps and then continue higher to finish.

Abadu, on Nov 11 2006, 06:35 PM, said:

And what nations you think that are the most important to start?What of my sugested civs you didnt like?what civs you sugest?

I'd start with:
Spanish and British. Actually, I'd like to draw attention of visitors by creation of some really nice model (Husaria?, I'm speaking about them too much, perhaps).
I can't say, that I don't like any of your civ. Actually, these are good ones. But simply there will be lot of work to be done anyway.

Abadu, on Nov 11 2006, 06:35 PM, said:

EDIT2:For make your work more easy,cant you just edit already made blender models?
And isnt there any other graphic software?because i dowloaded blender AGAIN and it continues how i configured

I'll have a look at your problem.
Actually, there is other software, but it is't for free. And Blender is truly pearl and for free. That is immensely great. I'm thanking god that such project exists.
Do you know, that company, which created Blender originally wasn't quite successfull and decided to cease its development but community gathered 100 000 Euro, bought source code and Blender is still under heavy development and it wa simproved greatly. If I can give you advice, don't throw it away.
Try to find in your registry keys and folders with word "Blender" and delete them.

In fact. I can handle 3D modelling well. It is 2d graphic-artist I'm desperatelly looking for. Just someone make textures in GIMP or Photoshop (or something else).

Hm? What's wrong?

Edited by Belisarivs, 11 November 2006 - 07:58 PM.

[Abadu]

I think that if we make a good unit,more people would join and try to learn blender,becuase they would see that we are making something.I sugest a exotic unit,such as a aztec warrior,for example
But some good news:In few days,i will go to my grandpa's house,there i never dowloaded lbwender,and i wil install it and READ the wiki tutorial before make anything.I will try to learn

[FirePowa8]

Beli, you will see an example of balance between Indians and Europeans in AOE3: WarChiefs. There are some fantasy elements, but it's MUCH more accurate than the Aztecs and Mayas in AOC, and they seem pretty balanced. Furthermore, they make for more interesting and unique gameplay.

For our first unit, I think we should make an Inca unit, since they are overlooked in many other games.

[Abadu]

Yes,but we should start with few nations FirePowa8,because Belisarivs is only 1
The inca would be good,but i guess the atec unit would call more people;This first unit is suposed to call more people to the team,and since the atecs are more knowed and more exotic,i guess they would work(But i whant to see incas too,becuase everyone forget them)

[Belisarivs]

I got an idea. What if I made some model, exported texture and let people at forum to try to create texture. I'd also prepare some short guide how to change texture so people could just use some painting tool and then try to put it to model (which will just mean editing texture, saving under same name and in same position and reloading of texture in blender) and render preview (camera and linghts would be preset).

Would anybody be interested? Only Blender and some painting tool would be required. And some skill, too. What do you think?
Do you have any idea where to upload those premade things? I can't download from rapidshare as I reached free limit. Any other suggestions?

[Abadu]

That would be better if you can get a tutorial for the peole,but i guess that the interest on the mod will rise when a unit appears
And in 4 days i will be in grandpa's house,so i can try to run blender

[FirePowa8]

Quote

the atecs are more knowed

In South America, you'll see otherwise. Even in Spain the Incas are better known and respected than the Aztecs, even though they were both conquered by the Spanish.

I'm not very good with Blender, I'm not patient enough. I can do concept art and maybe textures, though.

[Abadu]

This,at least in Brazil, should be true in the states near other S.American countrys,but here in my state(in northeast),the people know a bit more about the aztecs,but we brazilians know more about "our" tribes(Tupinamba,xavante,xoco,cariri,kayapo,pataxo...)

[Justinian]

This (like for honour and glory) seems to have progressed far. It's a good idea, IF it does sound a bit too much like AoE3.

Also (again just like in like for honour and glory) I would like to help but don't know how.

[Aeros]

Just wondering, what is the status of this mod currently? If there is still activity or a lead in question, let me know - I would like to contact the head of this mod.

[c0d3::M0nk3y]

hey mate... i just want to say, i find this (and the Mideval mod) BOTH a VERY very good idea... i think they will make playing the game THREE unique experiences...

Hope you keep up the good work and impress us all

Good luck

[Apomonomenos]

I will help

I can do some idea making

some 3-D animation

and some 2-D sketching

but maybe I could learn more from helping in this mod

[MrBlack103]

Hmm... The only thing I could possibly help with is playtesting, but that's looking a bit far ahead, don't you think?

[Abadu]

Well,I always tought that it would be good to have the mod already planned by the time the game is launched,so while its soon for you to do playtest (Obvious),you can give ideas and sugestions for the game
As a sidenote,I know that this mod is a bit "paused" compared to the FHaG (The medieval mod),but I'm with a lot of free time these days,so I'll try to work more on this one,and if you guys can help,it will be nice

[blablahead]

I would love to help! I know how to texture, and I know a lot about the Native Americans especially, but also about the general history of this period.

PS: Belisarius, I would point out how wrong you are about the Indians, but Abadu already did it. I think that to leave them out of this mod would be silly, and I don't really like the way they did it in AoE3, but it's better than nothing.

PPS: Why would a Iroquois warrior, for example, or a Cree warrior armed with a musket be any less effective than a British or French soldier armed with the same weapon?

Edited by blablahead, 27 December 2008 - 11:07 PM.

[Abadu]

A large european army would have an advantage against the indians,but the colonial armies who fought against them could be easily defeated.
So guys,lets start to work on this mod again!However,since Tathar,the mod's leader aparently lost his interest,I think we'll have to do all planning again.To start,I would like to ask you guys an important question:What timeline do you think is best for the mod?I only want to settle this with your help.
Cheers