29 replies to this topic

[Tathar]

i was reading over the civ chart and saw the realms in exile as a major civ apart from the Elves. the eldar were exiled way before the edain why are the eldar not named "Realms in Exile", and the edain of Numenor weren't really exiled they had almost been destroyed when they were escaped.

Edited by Tathar, 17 October 2006 - 11:09 AM.

[Gamling the Old]

There are many reasons that I could think of for this situation. Firstly, the Eldar (or more specifically the Noldor) left Valinor of their own free will. Thus, though they were banned from returning, they weren't really exiled.
On the other hand, the Faithful of Numenor only left their homeland to escape it's destruction in what could be termed an exile by Eru Illuvatar.
Finally, Tolkien himself describes the Dúnedain kingdoms as being "Realms in Exile" (possibly at the end of The Sil?). In keeping with the purist theme of this game, that seems like a good enough reason for me.
Take your pick

[Tathar]

ok

[Beren IV]

Although I accept the definitions and see them obviously, IMHO there are some major differences between Arnor and Gondor in the Third Age, and I'm not sure they deserve to be lumped together into the same civilization. Perhaps chief among these is the fact that Gondor is only somewhat of a Realm in Exile of Númenor: most of the citizens of Gondor are not Dúnedain, but other races of Men, some of them apparently quite different from Dúnedain, whom the Dúnedain united into a single kingdom. There are Dúnedain in Gondor, and among them are the rulers of Gondor, but they are not a kingdom of Dúnedain, unlike their northern sister kingdoms of Arnor and its descendent fragments.

[Enarwaen]

@Beren - please rest assured that we *will* distinguish between Arnor and Gondor when we set our sights upon the Third Age It will be even along the line that we will have distinguishable sub-factions within each civ ... *ahem*

[Beren IV]

I'm just thinking that perhaps the best way to do that might be to have a minor civ located in the Gondor area through which the Gondor faction gets most of its units, while Arnor is more or less stuck using their own units.

Actually, the real change that I would make to the civ list in the Third Age is to make the Noldor a minor civ and the Avari a major one, but that's just me. From what reading I have been doing of the admittedly outdated unit and building lists of the respective minor civs, I get the impression that some of the minor civs are a lot more "complete" and able to function on their own than others, and the Avari are probably one of the more complete ones, boasting a nearly full set of buildings and units. Obviously the Elven Power Of The Third Age is the Galadhrim, and they're already in there.

[Enarwaen]

you might be onto something there ... one might even go as far as to foretell that there won't be any "minor" civs anymore ... just more or less powerful civilisations/factions ... *ahem*

[Beren IV]

Well, according to the design document on the website (which is again out-dated), the minor civs will be able to produce goods but not consume them, in order to encourage them to trade the goods they produce to major civs. So this is a clear distinction, if it is still being used. Is it?

[Enarwaen]

this is another example of outdated information as things are standing now - every civilisation will be unique in its own way. if you choose to play say a small civ ala Bree or the Shire you will have all kinds of options that are defined in your civ's profile (meaning unit types, trade goods, diplomatic stances/allegiences, economic capability ...) - although your potential survival amidst your stronger neighbours is completely something different. (e.g. an more or less autonomous Shire caught into the conflict of Angmar vs. Arnor ...)

but this game mode (code named "Strat Mode") is still a loooong way off

[Beren IV]

Well, thinking about 'strength' of neighbors, any civ is obviously going to have a resource base that is going to be the bulk of its strength: a player with a larger resource base will be stronger, just in sheer numbers, than one with a weaker base. This would be true even if one player is the Hobbits and the other is Sauron. So I suppose that the question there is "what happens if the Hobbits manage to take in 1000 units of every commodity per minute while the Forces of Darkness take in only 50 units of each commodity?"

[Enarwaen]

it's not only down to resources ... there will be many more factors to take into account for the potential powermonger - e.g. your population growth, your logistic & economic capability ...

to put it short - our Strat.Mode isn't AoK anymore (but it's still a looooong way off)

[Beren IV]

Cool. So, how does population growth work? Does population effectively function as a commodity (i.e. is depleted as it is used), or does it act as some sort of background driving-factor influencing the costs (resources and/or time) of producing units? Presumably, it is influenced by race, but is it also influenced by food intake? Or is it possibly related to unit limit in some way?

[CrazyThumbs]

I like the idea of making every civ playable, I remember being a little disappointed by the fact that I couldn't play as Isengard or Harad.
There should still be a distinction between minor and major civs though, since people new to the game will think "cool, I can play as the hobbits" and then get crushed by a major civ.

[Beren IV]

The impression that I got most recently is that alliances between major and minor civs is crucial. So, for instance, a player who can do alliances can easily play as the Hobbits - but through his alliances, the soldiers defending his civilization will be the Men of Arnor, with only some guards or militia to stop any raiders that get through.


Edit: From the unit lists, it looks like most of the factions will have functional militaries, although presumably there will be some sort of rock-paper-scissors relationship between some kinds of units, enough that a major civ that has all of the necessary kinds can produce something that will better-than-equal whatever they face.

Edited by Beren IV, 29 December 2006 - 06:35 AM.

[Enarwaen]

@Beren - yes ... thats pretty close to the current plans. e.g. if you feel bold enough you can play as the Laiquendi of Ossiriand (under their leader Denethor) who can only employ unarmoured archer-units. so don't expect to fare well, when going toe-to-toe with some of Morgoth's orcsies. but in the same time you can expect some help from your allies like the Sindar under Thingol. (provided that there *IS* such an alliance in place)

[Beren IV]

I would think that the Liaquendi would have some spearmen to help out also, but yes.

That said, I generally feel that the Elves should be able to handle virtually any ordinary race except Dwarves coming their way, on a one-on-one basis, that is. Of course, that "one-on-one" is the critical issue! Speaking of which, have you given any more thought to the population dynamics thread?

[Enarwaen]

Beren said:

I would think that the Liaquendi would have some spearmen to help out also, but yes.

well that is exactly the problem that we are facing alot when defining our civilisations. we do not have any proof or textual references on the type of units deployed by the Elves of Ossiriand - only that they were "light-armed". our assumption is that (looking at their behaviour/lifestyle/background) they would only have access to the weapons ( or better said "tools") of the hunt - thus making them mainly using bows and daggers as secondary weapons. having some spearman might be a sensible idea though

HoME vol.11 - The Grey Annals - The Coming of Denethor said:

But the victory of the Elves was dearbought. For the Elves of Ossiriand were light-armed, and no match for the Orcs, who were shod with iron and iron-shielded and bore great spears with broad blades. And Denethor was cut off and surrounded upon the hill of Amon Ereb; and there he fell and all his nearest kin about him, ere the host of Thingol could come to his aid. Bitterly though his fall was avenged, when Thingol came upon the rear of the Orcs and slew them aheaps, the Green-elves lamented him ever after and took no king again.

After the battle some returned to Ossiriand, and their tidings filled the remnant of their folk with great fear, so that thereafter they came never forth in open war, but kept themselves by wariness and secrecy. And many went north and entered the guarded realm of Thingol and were merged with his folk.

regarding your pop.dynamics thread - not yet sorry - too swamped at work currently - but it's on my todo-list

[Beren IV]

Ugh - everything else aside, that kind of poetic description leaves an impression that defies disbelief. (Sorry, Tolkien!)


I have said it in the past, and I will say again: Elves are ideally suited to guerilla tactics. They are extremely mobile, able to hide easily, difficult to surprise, and very good with bows. A large, determined, and well-supplied army could defeat them, but it would need to be large, determined, and very well-supplied (guerillas are good at un-supplying armies).

At the same time, no matter how well-armed, I don't see Elves being able to win in a straight up fight very often, because they just don't have the numbers. Even the Noldor I imagine used guerilla tactics more often than not.

[Enarwaen]

Quote

Ugh - everything else aside, that kind of poetic description leaves an impression that defies disbelief. (Sorry, Tolkien!)

but these kind of description is the stuff that we'll stick to - even if they would defy (our) reality - but this is ME ... so different "rules" do apply

regarding Elves and guerilla warfare - yes to a degree - you'll find examples of this behaviour lots of times (Laiquendi, Marchwardens of Doriath, Finrod's Guards on Taleth Dirnen - just to get some examples from the First Age) ... but even more often you'll have open warfare (i.e. Noldor) who are going head to head (and most of the time vastly outnumbered) but still due to their power (of their fëa) and their vastly superior equipment they *do* make a difference.

so i'm afraid - basing my orientation on the texts - i'll have to disagree with you

[Beren IV]

Tolkien obviously intended fëar to be very important in combat. I suppose that my question is: from the standpoint of somebody who sees only the material world (which is us, because people in the real world do not percieve any spiritual world that might exist), what does the power of the fëa actually do that helps win a battle?


Now, in game terms, I suppose that this difficulty can be solved in terms of stats - e.g. Noldor have excellent attack and tons of hit points, but that doesn't help the visualization thing: presumably a spear wound to the face or chest of a Noldo would be generally fatal, just as with a human.