17 replies to this topic

[GONdorman]

Since i am a "fan" of Numenor (in the sense that it is my favourite tolkien kingdom, not in the sense of going up and down the street with a numenor T-shirt ) and I have read quite a lot about it, I wanted to give some suggestions to the team on how to do them. I am basing my ideas on the civilization showcases that are in The Last Alliance website, though they may be outdated. But, nevermind, here we go :
(BTW, numenorean units would ideally be taller than others, I guess)


Citizen: They would be the economic unit, builders and gatherers. I suppose that, with Numenor being a "civilized" realm, the citizens would not be great at hunting and woodchopping, but could be great for mining and farming. They would be dressed in a Medieval, burguess-like manner. Another possibility would be to have them as more kind off rough guys, with rough clothes and the like, like a medieval farmer

Scout: Riding on fine numenorean steeds, these guys should be superior scouts, well able to outrun most horsemen and scouts in Middle Earth. He would be the scout unit (duhh ) and faster than other scouts.

Banner-Bearer: Veteran warriors of the Island Kingdom, with the numenorean royal banner, they lead the brave dunedain to battle, and allow them to make formations. I suppose these guys would be tall, dressed in chainmail and helm, and a blue surcoat or tabard with the symbol of Numenor(which is the White Tree,I reckon).

Herald: The diplomatic unit for Numenor. I dont know what to say about this guy.

Guard: The guards of Numenor. Short spears and shields would be their equipment. However, i guess that, since Numenor was a rich kingdom, these soldiers would also be equiped with leather armour.

Spearman: Carrying a long spear, heavy shield and great morale, these men should be able to form a shieldwall, and are an ideal counter to cavalry. Low attack, yet great hitpoints. The level 1 version would ideally have a leather armour and cheap helm, level 2 with a more advanced leather armour and a tabard like the one of the banner-bearers. Perhaps they could also get nicer shield. Level 3 with chainmail, cool shield, the so said surcoat and a nice helm. Quite expensive.

Axeman: These warriors would battle with a two-handed axe. They could have some bonus against buildings, or infantry, to make them more unique. High attack, not so high hitpoints are the guidelines of these fellows. The evolution of exp levels should be similar to that of the spearman, but no shield. Expensive too.

Man At Arms: Men at Arms would be the most experienced fighters, with sword and shield. High morale, attack and hitpoints make these guys Middle Earth´s Spartans (well, not exactly that, but pretty awesome still). Since they are already veteran warriors, they would start with a tabard and nice shield, and as they get leveling up they get chainmail and nicer helms. In their level 3, they should look more "veteran" than spearmen or axemen in level 3, I think. Perhaps that could be achieved by giving them winged helms, and not to spearmen/axemen. Again expensive, and would require more tech and/or city level (if there are city levels in TLA).
The reason I rate swordsmen as more important troops is that, in the Unfinished Tales, in the Chapter "A Short Description of Numenor", it says that numenoreans had axes, spears and bows. Swords are not mentioned, except for the fact that the Dunedain had a guild that conserved the technology to make them. That leads me to think that swords are more expensive and/or valuable than the others, but still were present. Furthermore, in a chapter about the Gladden Fields, Tolkien mentions that some men had swords. Since by that time the Realms in Exile had not existed long enough to have changed their culture, I pressume that the Numenoreans did use swords, but to a lesser extent than other weapons.

Archer: Powerful bowmen, because of the Numenorean steelbows. They should be superior to most other archers of ME, with lots of damage and far reach. Expensive too. Again, the leveling should be similar to that of the spearman, albeit with no shield.

Knight: The knights should be very late game units, and very expensive, but extremely strong. I dont know how should they develop as they level up, since they are nobles and as such they have uber cool equipment from the start. Lances, beautiful helms (winged helms perhaps?) and heavy armour would be their so said "uber cool equipment". High stats, and great charge, almost cataphract-like.
Note: Some of you will probably tell me this unit is inacurate because Tolkien never mentioned dunedain fighting on horseback, and i am aware of it, but he did tell us that the Numenoreans boasted great steeds, and that they knew how to ride them. So, I guess that they DID use them for warfare, very limitedly, perhaps as bodyguards or such, and that the few riders they had were great, thanks to the advanced weaponry of the Numenoreans (im a "Completist", you see). Anyway, they must appear, for the sake of game balance, and because it is a pretty logic idea, after all. Thats why I said they should be expensive, to compensate for the fact that they did not use horsemen "officially".

Healer: The healer of Numenor should be superior to other mannish healers, because they had athelas and other useful plants (pipeweed came form numenor ), but more expensive to balance out.

Guard of Armenelos: Minas Tirith had Tower Guards, so Armenelos should get some too !. Along with the Knights, they are the only questionable unit, but again they are reasonable. Two-handed swords, helms, nice chainmails and a decorated tabard would be their equipment. With uber high hitpoints, attack and morale, these are THE REAL Spartans of ME ! Imagine them as dismounted knights, only without the lances. Again as the knights, I dont know how would they develop. Expensive and late game unit. Perhaps could have a special hability like "Inspire allies", which could boost the stats of nearby allies temporally.

Captain: Well, like other people´s captains, only with a numenorean look.

Then, for the equipment, they could have:

Work Cart: The middle point beetwen harvestin and using resources, nothing cool ´bout them.

Caravan: Used for trade, nothing special about them.

Ram: Again quite generic, but a ram is a ram, you know.

Catapult: Powerful siege weapons, well designed and manned by expert Numenorean enginers.

Fisher: The Numenoreans fished a lot, so this ships should be faster or cheaper than other civs ships.

Trader: Being the Dunedain known as Kings of the Sea, this ships should be able to transport more stuff than other similar ships

Warship: The Warship of Numenor is the King of the Sea, second in speed only to the Elven Vessels, and second to none in sturdiness. They trasport troops around. Again, I dont know how would they develop as they level up. Nicer sails, perhaps. Their weapons may be small balistas, kind of roman, and the men aboard the ship.

I know that my ideas are mostly very generic, but well, please dont blame me for that.
I am also aware that, until 0 A.D doesnt get released, you guys at TLA team cannot do a lot. However, I want to give you ideas (it is always good to keep da´brains working), and I enjoy doing so.

Hope you enjoy the read, and also hope some of my ideas get to the game itself

EDIT: Replaced "sobreveste" with tabard and/or surcoat, and removed the attacks against Google

Edited by GONdorman, 15 January 2009 - 01:43 PM.

[GONdorman]

Hummm, anyone ?

[Gamling the Old]

I think the term you are looking for is either 'tabard' or 'surcoat'.

Overall, I like the suggestions except the knights. As you have already related, Tolkien never mentions them fighting on horseback. In fact he specifically mentions that they fought on foot in a shield-wall most of the time. I think that the lack of heavy cavalry could be a counter for the fact that Numenorian infantry would be so much better than other races (excepting the Elves, specifically the Noldor).

[GONdorman]

Yay,first replier !!!

Would give you rep, but there´s no rep in this forums I believe...

Thanks for the term (surcoat). Will edit my post to replace "sobreveste"

Anyway, Numenor Infantry should be equal or better than Elven Infantry. Why? Cause Numenoreans were taller, stronger, quite brave, had equal or better equipment than elves, and the kingdom was so rich, it could afford good logistics (food, extra weapons and armour for the men who lost stuff on battlefield, arrows, water, etc).

And about the Knight issue... well, Numenoreans knew how to ride, knew how to make weapons, and they RULEEEEEZZZ!! So Numenoreans should have some cavalry, though, as I already mentioned, very limited. Though, you´re right in that, if Numenoreans dont get cavalry, it would balance things up. There are other balance factors, though, like price, resources and tech required, etc...

Another solution would be to have the captains riding on horse...

Nevertheless, thank you Gamling for having replied . The lack of replies was seriously worrying to me. And I wanted to give some life back to this forum, by discussing about which units the Numenoreans could have, which is an interesting subject. I really hope to get more replies...

EDIT: Added links in my signature. That really shows some despair from my part LOL

Edited by GONdorman, 16 January 2009 - 12:39 AM.

[Beren IV]

Alas, that I am not at all confident that the unit lists that exist for the First Age civilizations are ever going to be put into use. People right now are working on a more Myth-style game than an AoE-style game, and I'm not sure that there are going to be many of the units on there, and by the time people come back to it, they will likely want to have an altogether new list.


FRANKLY, I do not like the "citizen" concept in AoE-style games. I would much rather the different kinds of resource-gathering be performed by different units, or at the very least that farmers, miners, and scholars should each have respectively different abilities to harvest different resources (scholars can mine, in a pinch, but miners are much better at it).

[GONdorman]

Beren IV, on Jan 17 2009, 09:16 PM, said:

Alas, that I am not at all confident that the unit lists that exist for the First Age civilizations are ever going to be put into use. People right now are working on a more Myth-style game than an AoE-style game, and I'm not sure that there are going to be many of the units on there, and by the time people come back to it, they will likely want to have an altogether new list.

Yay, new poster !!!!!

Well, its true that the material featured on TLA site is as old as the hills, but I had to base on something. Anyway, just wanted to discuss about Numenor military, to keep some life over here...

Beren IV, on Jan 17 2009, 09:16 PM, said:

FRANKLY, I do not like the "citizen" concept in AoE-style games. I would much rather the different kinds of resource-gathering be performed by different units, or at the very least that farmers, miners, and scholars should each have respectively different abilities to harvest different resources (scholars can mine, in a pinch, but miners are much better at it).

Well, if that be the case, Numenor could have strong farmers/scholars/miners, but weak hunters (they were quite sedentary after all, so they wouldnt hunt a lot).

What do you think bout the military units, Beren IV? That part may still be quite valid, I guess...

[Beren IV]

Quote

Well, if that be the case, Numenor could have strong farmers/scholars/miners, but weak hunters (they were quite sedentary after all, so they wouldnt hunt a lot).

Farmers yes, builders yes, foresters yes - the Númenóreans replanted trees they cut down for their ship-building efforts. Miners I'm not so sure about, although they should be better than most other civilizations. They should be no match for either Dwarves or Noldor, however.

As for military units, it seems to me that Númenórean culture evolved over time from a very peaceful agrarian society to a very warlike conquerer's society. I would suggest therefore that Númenor should be constructed as a "boomer"-type civilization: it's difficult to raise an effective army early in the game and it takes a long time to climb the military tech tree, but when you do, you get some quite powerful end-game units. I would also suggest some in-game mechanism to represent the corruption of Númenor as this trend progresses - perhaps there could be some technologies that you could research that would increase the prowess of your units and possibly even enable some late-game superunits, but do bad things to your society and economy.

As for your unit list and their respective prowess, I think that Númenor should be kinda like the Noldor, and no, I don't think that Númenórean soldiers are any physically more capable than Noldorin Elves (although the same probably does not hold true for the Sindar). So this means that their units are expensive, favoring quality over quantity, but otherwise being all-around effective, unlike the slow-but-strong Dwarves or the mobile-and-tricksy Sindar or Avari. Númenórean magic should be roughly intermediate compared to the other races, better than Orcs or any other Men, but not as good as that of the Elves. I would further suggest that their magic should be best at building stuff, especially fortresses and other structures of military use (e.g. monuments that cause fear in enemies, such as the Argonath), although they should still have the morale-boosting magic of the sort that the Elves have.

[GONdorman]

*BUMP*

Well, now i´ll post the stats for the military units, again IMHO. I guess stats will be attack (Atk), attack speed (AS), hitpoints (HP), morale (M), movement speed (MS), cost [C], and range [R]... If there should be more stats let me know...

(These would be basic, lvl 1 stats)

Spearman:
Atk= 8 (x5 vs cavalry)
AS= 1/2 (1 hit per 2 seconds)
HP= 170
M= 12 (which would be quite a lot)
MS= Medium/Slow (dunno how will speed be determined)
C= Medium (again dunno which resources will there be)
R= Melee

Axeman:
Atk= 20 (x2 vs Infantry and/or buildings)
AS= 1/3
HP= 120
M= 13
MS= Medium/Slow
C= Medium/High
R= Melee

Archer:
Atk= 17
AS= 1/7 (Imagine reloading a steel longbow )
HP= 100
M= 8
MS= Medium
C= Medium/High
R= Long

Man at Arms:
Atk= 15
AS= 1/2.5 (Bit slower than Spearman, bit faster than Axeman)
HP= 210
M= 16
MS= Medium/Slow
C= High
R= Melee

Knight:
Atk= 21 (x4 when charging, though I dunno how would charges work)
AS= 1/4 (Imagine wielding a heavy lance from a horse, in close combat and you being fully armoured )
HP= 240
M= 18
MS= Medium/High (barely faster than archers)
C= Very High
R= Melee

Guard of Armenelos:
Atk= 22
AS= 1/3
HP= 180
M= 20
MS= Medium (They are the elite of Numenor, so they can move faster)
C= High/Very High
R= Melee

As you can see, most units have quite low speed, and are quite expensive. That is, so to compensate for their high stats. Perhaps I can then make a Sauron units thread... So we can compare the stats...

Edited by GONdorman, 13 February 2009 - 03:09 PM.

[Beren IV]

These numbers are meaningless without a reference.

I will also note that it is entirely possible that the sizes of military formations in TLA will be very large compared to typical RTS games, and as a consequence they will have much higher attack stats in relation to their hit points, so that often times one unit could realistically kill another with a single stroke.

[GONdorman]

Beren IV, on Feb 14 2009, 04:46 PM, said:

These numbers are meaningless without a reference.

I will also note that it is entirely possible that the sizes of military formations in TLA will be very large compared to typical RTS games, and as a consequence they will have much higher attack stats in relation to their hit points, so that often times one unit could realistically kill another with a single stroke.

Yes, they are meaningless...

But cmon, I wanted to discuss a bit, bring some life to the forums, etc!

Anyway, I would like to hear your numbrs then... meaningless as they might be, it´s still cool to speculate a bit

Edited by GONdorman, 15 February 2009 - 12:51 AM.

[Beren IV]

All right. First, I don't like your attacks/second number - I understand that the early AoE games did it that way, but later historical or pseudohistorical RTS games like RoN or AoM have the attack value representing the amount of damage inflicted over a reference period of time.

I am just going to give attack and defense values, since the parameters of the defense (e.g. hp) are going to need to be adjusted depending on the sizes of typical armies and especially whether or not there is some kind of attack roll system you would have in a TBS or RPG.

So, for Númenor, I envision something like this:

Basic citizen-type units
Attack: 5
Defense: 4

Guards
Attack 7
Defense 12

Spearmen
Attack 9
Defense 12

Man-at-arms
Attack 11
Defense 11

Axeman
Attack 13
Defense 10

Archer
Attack 9 (but with a good chance of missing)
Defense 8

Knight
Attack 14
Defense 12

Guard of Armelenos
Attack 12
Defense 15

Captain (provides leadership, etc.)
Attack 15
Defense 18

Zealot* (can also farm, cut timber, etc.)
Attack 10
Defense 3

Black Archer*
Attack 12
Defense 7

King's Knight*
Attack 15
Defense 10

Temple of Melkor Guard*
Attack 14
Defense 14

Sorcerer Captain* (lowers enemy morale)
Attack 17
Defense 18

*All units marked with an asterisk require you taking the path of corruption which lowers the productivity of your citizenry and makes you less able to use magic.

Heroes should generally have attack values in the high teens and defense values in the middle twenties. Elros and Elendil should be higher than the rest. Ar-Pharazôn and possibly some of the other wicked Númenórean kings should also lower enemy morale like sorcerer captains.

-


For Sauron in the Second Age, I would say something like:

Slave
Attack 6
Defense 4

Taskworker
Attack 7
Defense 3

Orc spearman
Attack 6
Defense 6

Orc swordsman
Attack 8
Defense 5

Orc archer (can track)
Attack 6 (medium-range)
Defense 5

Warg
Attack 11
Defense 10

Orc warg-rider
Attack 13
Defense 10

Orc captain (provides leadership boni)
Attack 15
Defense 14

Cave troll
Attack 15
Defense 16

Stone troll
Attack 12
Defense 20

Snow troll
Attack 18
Defense 14

Orc Sorcerer (lowers enemy morale)
Attack 18
Defense 12

Heroes should have attack and defense both around twenty, although the Nine should have slightly lower attack higher defense, and lower enemy morale like other sorcerers. Sauron himself should have stats in the forties.

[Apomonomenos]

Why is it that when you mentioned "Orc", I started thinking of another Warcraft Game?

[GONdorman]

Because you play Warcraft?

Im kidding, I like warcraft

Orcs are an important part of LOTR, so its no surprise we mention them in a LOTR forum...

Did you like my unit list, or Beren´s list??

@Beren IV:

Beren IV, on Jan 20 2009, 02:00 PM, said:

As for military units, it seems to me that Númenórean culture evolved over time from a very peaceful agrarian society to a very warlike conquerer's society. I would suggest therefore that Númenor should be constructed as a "boomer"-type civilization: it's difficult to raise an effective army early in the game and it takes a long time to climb the military tech tree, but when you do, you get some quite powerful end-game units. I would also suggest some in-game mechanism to represent the corruption of Númenor as this trend progresses - perhaps there could be some technologies that you could research that would increase the prowess of your units and possibly even enable some late-game superunits, but do bad things to your society and economy.

Uhmm, I have to disagree.
Acording to some information in the LOTR appendix, by year 1000 in the Second Age, Sauron felt alarmed by the power of the Numenoreans, so they HAD power. And by 1700 SA, the Numenoreans defeated Sauron´s forces in Eriador. Now, those forces had destroyed Eregion, and overthrow many Elves and Men, so they must be big... And it was he Numenoreans who crushed them. So, even in early/middle game Numenor would be powerful militarily. To balance out, numenorean units would be expensive.

Then, about the corruption, I like your idea. However, in my humble opinion, I think that, rather than increasing the prowess of your troops, you could just get all new units, and stop getting the old ones. The, lets say, "Dark Units", should be bigger in attack and decreasing enemies morale, but have lower deffense and/or morale than the old troops. I dont think the economy should be touched. Anyway, the numenorean economy actually benefited from the corruption (they conquered some mannish tribes, and sacked the people, I guess, and weapon production increased a lot).

If you take the path of Corruption, you could get a relationship penalty with most civs however, to balance out...

[Beren IV]

Well, Númenor still wasn't a major military force for over a thousand years. I would suggest perhaps that where Númenor really should shine is (surprise) their naval units. Númenórean warships should be powerful early in the game, and enjoy the grace the same way the Teleri navy does. But they shouldn't be all that high and mighty on land until well into the game. This also fits with them being an island-based civilization.

As for the effects of corruption, the economic effects that I was envisioning involve the following:

1. Númenórean natural resource harvesting is sustainable before they are corrupted. For example, the Dúnedain replanted their forests that they felled for shipbuilding early in their history. After they became corrupted, they stopped doing this, becoming ravagers and pillagers instead of the ideal agriculturalists. Thus, as their corruption increases, their need to expand into virgin unspoiled lands increases, but they get better at raiding. Effectively, they can't turtle (or boom) so effectively.

2. The Dúnedain had some kind of magic that enabled them to build all but indestructible fortresses; Orthanc, for example, or the lowermost wall of Minas Tirith. They also build monuments like the Argonath that should have morale effects. I would suggest that this magic is associated with the grace of the Dúnedain and the favor of the Valar, and, as they lose it, they lose the ability to do these things.

3. Númenórean ships also enjoy the grace of the Valar early on and don't sink in bad weather (mainly because they don't run into bad weather that can sink them; again, it's grace). Once corrupted, the weather works against them. It would be cool if there were some mechanic to account for this.

[GONdorman]

Well, in that you´re right. I like your economy ideas. I think, after the corruption, Numenor could get a plunder bonus when they attack enemies (to represent they were merciless people, after the corruption).

About land-power... okay, in early game they should quite suck. However, my point is, instead of making early Dunedain units weak, perhaps they should take some more time to reach their middle units (Spearmen, Axemen, etc), but, when they do, those units are powerful enough to give them an advantage in most battles.

Having said that, those middle units, would arrive in middle-game, effectively making Numenor a "boomer".

And in late-game, you could choose to be good (kepping the good economy and your traditional units) or be bad (you lose some economical advantage and the traditional units, but get the powerful armies of Ar-Pharazön).

However, IMHO, the "traditional" units (axemen, spearmen, men at arms) should have some advantage that the "evil ones dont... more morale, defense, cheaper, or perhaps even having a couple of units with morale boost.

Or perhaps exactly the opposite, with "evil" units being cheaper than traditional ones, lower or equal in stats, but more cost-effective anyway...

[Beren IV]

I agree; in fact the stats I gave the corrupted units were generally +2 to attack and -1 to defense relative to their uncorrupted counterparts. Higher morale would also be appropriate for the uncorrupted units, although not much higher morale. The big bonus for staying uncorrupted, I think, in addition to being economically self-sufficient, should be that you retain units like the Harper or equivalent that boosts friendly battle stats. If you go evil, then you get sorcerers, who reduce enemy stats (again, particularly morale).

[GONdorman]

Beren IV, on Feb 23 2009, 04:30 AM, said:

I agree; in fact the stats I gave the corrupted units were generally +2 to attack and -1 to defense relative to their uncorrupted counterparts. Higher morale would also be appropriate for the uncorrupted units, although not much higher morale. The big bonus for staying uncorrupted, I think, in addition to being economically self-sufficient, should be that you retain units like the Harper or equivalent that boosts friendly battle stats. If you go evil, then you get sorcerers, who reduce enemy stats (again, particularly morale).

Cool

Shame though, 0A.D isn´t out

[Master-General Aetius]

Sorry, but in Unfinished Tales it explicitly states that Numenor did not field cavalry out of a reverence for horses. Thus I believe that Numenor should be an entirely infantry-based race, with warriors the match of most others, save the Elves, but with lethal archers equipped with the universally feared Steel Bows, as written in the aforementioned book. They should come to prominence in all later with a reform of the military (Tolkien does not state that such an event took place, but neither did he explicitly deny it), similar in effect to the Roman Marian Reforms that led to the vast improvements to an already potent army. I think, howevr, that as per the Pre-Marian Legions, they should possess potent troops, with excellent spearmen, similar to the Triarii. If you intend to use naval units, I suggest an "Athenian" style navy with lethal, fast moving ships similar in function to the biremes, triremes and liburnia, with larger quinquireme style ships forming the elite. It should be the best navy in the game, due to the Numenorean quality of navy. There should be no corrupted sorcerers, since there were no Mannish sorcerers even amongst those Men most loyal to Sauron, for his aim was to destroy Numenor, not corrupt it for his own uses. They should build towering, nigh-indestructible bastions and fortresses such as Orthanc. This was not magic, merely some incredibly hard stone that can withstand all.

I hope that I have been of some use.