11 replies to this topic

[oshron]

i have some ideas for resources in TLA


first: a larger amount of resources than in 0 AD. basically, just expand Metal outwards into Iron and Gold again, make the game a bit more complex like AOE

second: a new mining resource, Mithril. this could be harder to find than gold or iron but you need less of it and can mine it longer. mithril as a resource could be used for certain dwarvish, elvish, and maybe a few-and-far-between human units, since dwarves made great use of it, elves had some as well, and men only had a few(ex: some Numenorean/Gondorian heirlooms were mithril helmets that had been passed down since the second age and were still in use in the third age)

third: a new resource similar to Favor in AOM: Fire. this may seem stupid, to have Fire as a resource, but im referring to the Secret Fire which, if you remember, was used by Eru and the Valar to create life, so it could be used in the construction of certain war beasts like balrogs, trolls, and ents(even though Morgoth couldnt create life from nothing since he never acquired the Secret Fire and could only corrupt pre-existing life, it would make things simpler). how Fire is gathered is beyond me at this point; maybe the player would just gradually acquire it over time, with a faster or slower rate depending on the culture(like the noldor get it rather quickly while morgoth barely does). this could also be used to even things out for the dark cultures, which have access to massive and positively deadly creatures like balrogs which make the game a bit unfair(i noticed this in a LOTR mod for AOM; if an enemy got a balrog, you pretty much couldnt win)

[Aldandil]

I like your resource ideas, although mithril should be extremely rare...

Until you got to the part about the Secret Fire. Eru has that and nobody else can touch or use it. This is an important point of the cosmology in the Silmarillion, which is a Christian work: only God can create life. When Aule tried, he ended up with mindless zombies. The dwarves had no souls, minds, or will until Eru took pity and supplied the missing parts.

Balrogs are fallen angels, and were created by Eru. The original Dragons and Gaurhoth were fallen angels possessing mutated animal bodies, which bodies they used to breed new (demon-blooded) generations. Stone-Trolls are fake life that lack the Secret Fire, which is why they turn to stone when exposed to sunlight. Orcs are twisted, mutated, and perhaps demon-blooded elves and/or humans. The bird-bat-pterodactyl things that Ringwraiths ride are mutated animals. Wargs are mutated wolves.

Allowing any player, whether they're playing a Dark Lord or his enemies, to use the Secret Fire to create life makes no sense in the setting, plus it's unnecessary. Raising an army from existing people, breeding more soldiers by combining the fertile ones you already have, and (for Dark Lords) mutating innocent animals into freakish monsters, ought to be enough.



On the other hand, LA could allow a totally different kind of resource: machines, or explosives, or whatever Sauron and Saruman used to break walls and so on. I don't really know Lord of the Rings well enough to be sure what it was, but I think there was something special that they had or used.

Edited by Aldandil, 18 August 2009 - 02:40 AM.

[Radagast]

There is a much older thread describing how resources work; basically, everyone has access to iron, wood, and stone for general construction. Every race also has its own set of trade goods that they alone can procure. For example, only the dwarven houses can obtain mithril directly, and only the Sindar can make lembas. The only way for other races to gain access to these special resources is by trade; they recieve a slow trickle, the magnitude of which is determined by the amount of trading infrastructure they have built. This makes alliances and trade routes very important, as some of the best faction units are likely to require or at least be improved by special resources. Keep in mind that this is all from memory, I may be mistaken. I will try to find a link to that thread.

On the fire, I thought the point of the story was that Eru was surprised when the dwarves cowered in fear because they wouldn't have if Aule had made them as mere extensions of his will. I thought that he decided to be merciful because the dwarves exhibited independant will.

[NOXAS1]

is this game still in development I havent seen alot being done?

[Setlec]

i don't think that TLA is currently under development.

About the resources do you remember the game called " the settlers"? i kinda liked the mining process, where you had to find the materials in the area and then construct the mine and then start to mine.

Cheers

[oshron]

sorry my reply is so late

i understand about the thing with the Secret Fire, where only Eru (God) can create life, but do you think it would work for the purposes of the game? at the very least, there should be some special resource available only to the dark factions that would limit the amount of super-powered units like balrogs and dragons that they can get while lesser ones like trolls and wargs would require FAR less, and orcs wouldnt require it at all simply because they would be the basic units for the evil factions. it would be for the purposes of balance

[Aldandil]

I think a good way to handle that would be to deal with the reproduction issue. Orcs can reproduce at least as "fast" as elves, for whom pregnancy lasts 12 months and childhood lasts about 478 years. Presumably they can actually breed faster, considering their shorter lifespans, so I'd let them breed as fast as humans, or almost as fast. Come to think of it, slow breeding could provide a limitation for elf players, to offset their superior abilities compared to humans. Your soldiers are more dangerous and harder to kill, and require less food to survive, but it takes longer to get more of them. (The idea of breeding just to fuel a war sounds pretty horrible, but I know this is a game.)

Corrupted animals, such as wargs, can probably breed at a rate similar to what they were descended from, which should make most of them pretty quick breeders compared to humans. Making the first ones of any particular type should take longer, though, to reflect the time and effort needed to corrupt and mutate them in the first place. Same with Orcs, actually. Ick.

However, Dragons and Gaurhoth ("werewolves") should be slow breeders; the Silmarillion mentions that it takes a long time (decades or centuries) for dragons to reach maturity. Also, none of the ones that are born should be the equal of the originals who were "created" by putting demons directly into bodies, although I don't know how to model that in a game: maybe have two "levels" of dragons, a very slow-to-"create" primary dragon type, and a less powerful but relatively faster breeding type that you can't get until you have the first?

The time or resources it takes to build/create trolls could be based simply on how powerful they are and how much the developers want to limit them.

Balrogs are the simplest: there were only 7 at most, so you can limit the Dark Lord to having only 7 at one time, and impose some time limitation for how soon a Balrog can be re-formed after being "killed." (OK, so if TLA was going strictly by the lore they shouldn't be killed by just anybody, but this is a game. TLA could make up for that by letting them come back from the dead.)

And sorry I'm late, too.

Edited by Aldandil, 28 January 2010 - 04:29 PM.

[oshron]

theres only seven balrogs? i was under the impression that there were far more. but maybe im wrong on that

i would personally suggest a lower number for the balrogs. in fact, maybe it could be that the player can only have one balrog at a time for balance purposes, but they can make up to five balrogs during the course of a single game

btw, if i were to suggest any creature/being coming back from the dead, it would HAVE to be the nazgul. the only reason is because they are pretty much immortal and dont have bodies that can be destroyed, unlike elves who, while immortal, can still be killed. case in point: at the fords of bruinen, the nazgul were swept away by the water and lost their cloaks, returning them to their "spirit" forms, so they were forced to retreat to mordor but, as we all know, came back later on. so it would be more like the nazgul lose their guises in the game and are forced to retreat to where they came from, whether they respawn on their own or have to be trained again

for that matter, maybe it could ALSO be that theres a two different types of nazgul: five walking nazgul, three riding nazgul, and then the witch king as a "hero" unit. or maybe the nazgul could have different modes taht they could switch between, either on their own or when commanded to do so, like when crossing a short distance, they just go on foot, but when they have to charge across the map, they get on horseback

[Aldandil]

I like the idea of the Nazgul switching modes better, and I agree with you that they should be able to re-spawn indefinitely. Probably they would start out mounted on horses, and you need to do something extra to find pterodactyls or whatever, corrupt them into giant nekkid things, and train the Nazgul to ride them, before the Wraiths can switch to flying mode. However, it would add more complexity to make the flying mounts separately kill-able.

For Balrogs, Tolkien wrote that there were "only three or at most seven." I'm quoting from memory, Morgoth's Ring I think, so my wording might be off. Therefore any number from 3 to 7 could be the maximum available, either at any one time or over the course of the game. The reason I could see letting them re-spawn is because, as non-bodied Maiar, they are not truly incarnates and can re-form new bodies, at least in theory. Morgoth and Sauron both eventually lost that ability, so maybe the Balrogs did as well. Actually, that's the only explanation I can think of they stayed "dead" after Echthelion and Glorfindel killed two of them.
(There were whole legions of Balrogs in the Lost Tales, maybe that's where you got that impression.)

There were also "Great Orcs," basically minor Maiar demons who chose to look like big, tough orcs, and couldn't ever really be killed, so they kept coming back for every battle. That's Tolkien's explanation for how some orc generals could live for centuries, and come back after "dying" in battle, when real orcs didn't live that long. Personally, I suspect that part of the reason orcs in general were so messed up is that these Great Orcs might have bred with them...

Edited by Aldandil, 28 January 2010 - 04:30 PM.

[oshron]

i had actually gotten the multiple balrogs thing from a forum rpg completely unrelated to tolkien, though theres alot of tolkien content in it and theres no less than one or two dozen balrogs (though only the moria balrog, durin's bane, has been present consistently). in any case, 3-7 balrogs would be best for the game. i would personally say that there should only be three balrogs to a player during the course of the game, though you can only have one at a time for balance purposes

also, notice that in LOTR, when thee moria balrog's flames are extinguished, he flees from gandalf. iirc, gandalf stated that, in terms of power, he and the moria balrog are equals, so the fact that the balrog ran when he lost his fire seems to indicate, to me, at least, that they are weakened when the flames are extinguished. maybe there could be something like that in the game, like maybe if its raining, the balrogs become significantly weaker?

as for fell beasts, yeah, they should be seperately killable or maybe even seperately trainable, and should maybe be present as their own units as well. btw, im interested to see how the team will design them; im looking forward to finally seeing beaked fell beasts in motion

[Aldandil]

oshron, on Jan 28 2010, 02:23 PM, said:

also, notice that in LOTR, when thee moria balrog's flames are extinguished, he flees from gandalf. iirc, gandalf stated that, in terms of power, he and the moria balrog are equals, so the fact that the balrog ran when he lost his fire seems to indicate, to me, at least, that they are weakened when the flames are extinguished. maybe there could be something like that in the game, like maybe if its raining, the balrogs become significantly weaker?

Like a nasty debuff that they can't heal without returning to one of their buildings? That's a serious drawback... and I don't think it should make them weak enough to flee from units significantly weaker than themselves. But it's an interesting idea. Forcing them into standing, or better yet flowing, water does make sense as a good weakness, since Echthelion killed Gothmog using that same method to weaken him. It also dovetails with the fear of running water that orcs and other monsters of Morgoth have. And it could be a way to make them killable, while also making them one of the most powerful units in the game.

I have no clue how complex the 0A.D. game engine is going to be, or how feasible this sort of thing is.


By the way, was there any plans to give anyone access to Giant Eagles? They mainly only helped Gondolin in battle.

Edited by Aldandil, 28 January 2010 - 10:21 PM.

[oshron]

what i had in mind was just that they would gradually get hurt during a rain, like however much damage is received every few seconds