[buggy123]

China was a dominating force in Asia throughout the entire course of history. We should reflect some of that.

I'm not proposing a new mod, just to create a new civilization. AOE3 TAD's representation of the Chinese was not very inaccurate in my opinion.

Once the art work and such is created, maybe others can use it in there mods. Some eras I want to cover are:

Zhan Guo (warring state) and the Rise of Qin.
Uprising of the Han and the Han dynasty
(maybe an in-between mini-turban rebellion scenario)
The 3 Warring States (Wei Shu Wu)
Mongol Invasion and the Rise of Jin dynasty

500 B.C. - 400 A.D. (approximate)
I'm debating as to whether split the China faction into many sub-factions (which would be alot) and have them pretty much the same but with slightly different tactics/units/bonus or just have China as a whole with many ages representing the dynasties

any thoughts or suggestions?

[darthturtle]

Well, I think Zhan Guo and Qin should be one civilization, Han and the 3 kingdoms be another, mainly because of the rapid rise in the importance of cavalry between the Qin and Han. So although the infantry will be similar (only main difference I can think of is the change from mainly using the Ge, which is a scythe-like weapon effective for use on chariots, to the qian, which is just a spear, this change also reflects the change from chariots to mounted cavalry) the other things will be pretty different.

[buggy123]

I think by qian u meant Qiang (the spear, not pike) The Chinese used the spear as a individual weapon with lots of skill, as opposed to phalanx formation of the west. Though movies are some what exaggerated, there is truth to the spear wielding warriors that can take out squads of men.

In close-quarter, the spear was often wielded as a staff to knock down opponents and then stabbing them. There wasn't much vulnerability (except for the spear breaking, which unlikely judging by the quality of the wood used)

I also wanted to mention the use of hooks on end of sticks (its like a spear but with hook instead of spearhead) infantry men used them to ambush cavalry (who are traveling on a path) by swiping the foot of the horses.

There's also the Chained horsemen. A group of "knights" with extremely heavily armored horse would literally chain them together and charge. The effect was often devastating and could easily plow through any formation (often at the cost of the sacrifice of the frontal members) Obviously, they kept apart if not charging since it would hamper the maneuverability greatly.

Lastly is the Iron Chained Ships. They were very stable as the ships were connected into a single giant mass. (but they burn easier since the ships are connected. If one goes on fire, all of them lights on fire)

Oh, and there's the repeating crossbow (Zhuge-Nu) which allowed even newb archers to fire massive amounts of armor piercing bolts within a very short time

[DK_BadReputation]

Well of course the great chinise generals should be considered, it could be a nice expansion...In my opinion there are still some european population to consider before... How many kind of celts and barbarians there was...

[buggy123]

True true, but still the chinese are much more rich in culture, history and thus they have more possibilities

[darthturtle]

buggy123, on Oct 5 2009, 07:36 AM, said:

I think by qian u meant Qiang (the spear, not pike) The Chinese used the spear as a individual weapon with lots of skill, as opposed to phalanx formation of the west. Though movies are some what exaggerated, there is truth to the spear wielding warriors that can take out squads of men.

In close-quarter, the spear was often wielded as a staff to knock down opponents and then stabbing them. There wasn't much vulnerability (except for the spear breaking, which unlikely judging by the quality of the wood used)

I also wanted to mention the use of hooks on end of sticks (its like a spear but with hook instead of spearhead) infantry men used them to ambush cavalry (who are traveling on a path) by swiping the foot of the horses.

There's also the Chained horsemen. A group of "knights" with extremely heavily armored horse would literally chain them together and charge. The effect was often devastating and could easily plow through any formation (often at the cost of the sacrifice of the frontal members) Obviously, they kept apart if not charging since it would hamper the maneuverability greatly.

Lastly is the Iron Chained Ships. They were very stable as the ships were connected into a single giant mass. (but they burn easier since the ships are connected. If one goes on fire, all of them lights on fire)

Oh, and there's the repeating crossbow (Zhuge-Nu) which allowed even newb archers to fire massive amounts of armor piercing bolts within a very short time

Yes I do mean the qiang, it is true that they rarely fight in anything that resembles a phalanx, but during the qin dynasty, there is actually an experimental unit that fought like a phalanx, but that never caught on.
I think the hook on a stick is the ge which I mentioned. But this weapon was replaced by the more versatile qiang after qin.
The chained cavalry, if i remember correctly, is actually used by machurians originally, AGAINST the Chinese, but I might be wrong on this
The chained ship , i think, was only used during the battle of the Red Cliff. It prevented soldiers from getting sea sick (since it was much more stable), but burned easily. I don't think it was used in other battles though.
The repeating crossbow is my all-time favourite pre-gunpowder ranged weapon. Although in earlier versions, the power and range of the shots were reduced drastically to cope with the speed, but by the ming dynasty, the repeating crossbow gained the nickname of "anti-barbarian crossbow" (yuan rong nu) because of its effectiveness against cavalry charges used by nomadic armies against China

[Brightgalrs]

If china was to be modded in, then it would be represented at it's pinnacle of power or unification.

[buggy123]

Hm, well I kind of wanted to show the "change" throughout the eras. But anyways, after some more research, here's some things that I strongly want to attribute to China:

1. Strong versatile Polearm Units.
2. The Zhu Ge Nu, Is not very accurate but devastating against tightly packed troops and penetrates heavy armor. Has long range
3. Very strong General Units. Chinese generals were often chosen for their combat skills
4. Ge Warriors armed with Sickle-Axes (At least in the Qin Dynasty)
5. Weaker Cavalry (It seemed like the Chinese horses were inferior to other Nations Steeds due to poor breeding)
6. Chariots

I'm still considering some of the technological aspects.

This post has been edited by buggy123: 15 October 2009 - 05:26 AM

[Brightgalrs]

Strong polearms, you say?
I am making an outline for both the Han Dynasty and Mauryan Empire, so I will certainly incorporate those ideas.

[darthturtle]

On chariot, those were only really seen before the Han dynasty, during the Han dynasty, chariots were replaced by riders on horseback. After that Chinese cavalry forces generally don't have chariots in them

[buggy123]

yes, Chariots will be available in Zhanguo/Qin and will be replaced by horsemen.

[Apomonomenos]

buggy123, I think by sickle axes you mean Kama(s).

[buggy123]

Ge is kinda like a Dagger attached sideways to a wooden handle

http://www.ourorient...es/sites/ge.htm

more info on it

This post has been edited by buggy123: 01 November 2009 - 05:43 AM

[Alpha of the Eagles]

How about making a Yuezhi or a Xiongnu faction? Horse Archers would be dominant of course...

[Aldandil]

I think this is a great idea for a mod.

buggy123, on Oct 15 2009, 12:26 AM, said:

5. Weaker Cavalry (It seemed like the Chinese horses were inferior to other Nations Steeds due to poor breeding)

To what extent can stirrups make up for that? Until stirrups caught on with other peoples, they should have given the Chinese an advantage, right?

[buggy123]

I suppose the stirrup can be "researched" and give better movement speed and turn speed. but stat's like health and attack will be inferior. Now that 0 A.D is nearing a playable version (another few month?) I'm going to start working more on this