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post-0 AD idea: mythology


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#1 oshron

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 02:01 AM

i understand completely that teh modding team is COMPLETELY preoccupied with 0 AD and their real-world lives, and will be pre-occupied after 0 AD with 0 AD part 2, TLA, and possibly Colonial AD (im honestly not too sure about that myself, simply because i havent looked into it), but i personally think that a good game for the team to make after 0 AD (and possibly those other ones) is finished would be a mythology-based game, kind of a spiritual successor to AOM. im already making written designs for all the civilizations. tbph, its just to keep my boredom at bay--i like researching for each of the civilization--but if and when this becomes possible, i think it would be a good idea to pick up the designs for a sort-of-sequel to 0 AD. ive already got all the cultures (a total of 20 that are introduced 5 at a time, with the first five being the Greeks, Egyptians, Norse, Mesopotamians, and Celts) and most of the units for them

of course, i completely understand if no one else thinks this is a good idea, but ive been putting alot of time and effort into writing it up. personally, i think the benefit of this for the modding team would be that they wouldnt have to do any of the research themselves, as i would have already done it all

id also just like to say right now that it is not meant to be entirely historically accurate; some of the units for different civilizations are derived from that peoples' myths and legends (ex: the Greeks have the Argonaut as a "power soldier") and that the time period is pretty ambiguous, that theres three "monotheist" cultures in the third set of five cultures (Christians, zoroastrian Persians, and the Hebrews are represented by a Major God in the Levantines[which itself covers three distinct peoples]), and that, like in 0 AD, its more like the cultures are frozen at some point in time, hence the ambiguous time period. for example, the Greeks represent a time period approximately between the trojan war and alexander's campaigns in asia, the Egyptians represent all of the ancient egyptian kingdoms, and the Norse mostly represent the people of Scandinavia during the Viking Age, while the Mesoamericans represent a time period from the neolithic to pretty much right before the 1400s, and the Japanese can represent any time period from the Jomon Period to right before coming into contact with Europeans

as i said, ambiguous time period, whatever works for that race's mythology

(prepares to be shot down)

Edited by oshron, 29 November 2010 - 03:24 AM.

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#2 Mythos_Ruler

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 11:29 AM

I would love to make a mythology RTS, akin to a more accurate AOM. However, 20 factions is way too many to make unique and maintain balance.

I'd do: Greek, Norse, Egyptians, Mesoamericans. Then in the expansion do the Chinese, Japanese, Hindus, Mesopotamians. In the end that's 8 totally unique factions. Perhaps add the Romans in a bonus content pack. (I once read a VERY good Roman faction profile here. They could definitely work and be a lot different from The Greeks)

Edited by Mythos_Ruler, 10 December 2009 - 11:34 AM.

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#3 Kimball

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 03:04 PM

Here's a WIP outline that I started a couple years ago in hopes of converting 0 A.D. into the dream AoM-remake. Here's a few mythical beasts that fit the current profile. Couldn't find any Iberians or Carthaginians though.

Carthaginians

Celts

Catt Siu
*Armament: Some form of firey touch.
*Appearance
-Body & Clothing: A small cat that walks on its hind legs.
*History: A common figure in Gaul's mythologies, a type of evil fairie. It was incited to help by burning cats to it; a cult even sprung up around a specific one named 'Big Ears'. The creature is highly intelligent and was believed to grant wishes if properly appeased with sacrifices of cats and wine. While in Gaelic myth, this became the Cait Sith, a slighty different creature, and more or less just a ghostly mountain lion in Scotland, to the Gauls they're depicted as being a small cat-like man who walks on his hind legs. In all, fire is associated with the being, and they were commonly blamed for starting unexplained fires.
*Reference: The Ile Cauldron is probably the best depiction of one.

Coun Siu
*Armament: Biting and slashing with claws.
*Appearance
-Body & Clothing: A large, black wolf/hound.
*History: A Coun Siu, Fairie Dog, also written in parts of southern Gaul on objects as Coun Dusi, or Demon Dog, was a werewolf-like creature feared by Gauls, but also revered to some extent. They were supposed to be the spirits of heroes killed ingloriously, such as by assassination or in an accident, infuriated they died without recieving proper recognition. They defend ther native tribe, but kill everyone else mercilessly. They were commonly put to blame for the theft of small children from villages.
*Reference: Tales of such creatures survived and changed over time, remaining common even now in Laurentian French areas, as well as in their diaspora, such as among rural Louisiana Cajuns. Figurines of the creature with the name written on them exist dating to about 300 BC up to around 150 AD.

Cavarillus
*Armament: Cudgel
-Upgrade: A large socket axe and shield, or a sword and shield
*Appearance
-Body: A very tall human. Should not seem savage, giants to the Gauls were held in high esteem, even if often depicted as enemies. Long hair, a tall, willowy but well-toned body.
-Clothing: Barechested, with a neck torc and plaid trousers like a normal Celtic warrior.
-Upgrades: Tunic and helmet for advanced, scale or mail armor for elite
*History: Giants in Celtic myth are extremely common, and vary widely. Some are great one-eyed beasts or many-headed ogrish creatures, but some were supposed to be friends of 'other' men, a recognition of giants being humans, simply massive in size. They would largely appear to be like other men, dressing like them, fighting similarly, but tall as two men, and often lean in appearance, different from the thick, huge juggernauts of many other myths. Truly monsterous giants were often quite a bit bigger, particularly in Gaelic and later Welsh myth, were giants could stand as tall as a hill. However, in Gallic myth, they appear to have simply been notably big men, and took for them normal wives.
*Reference: Giants figure in Celtic myths heavily. Figures of giants are extremely common in Celtic gravesites or religious sites. Giants vary in myths from monsters, like the one-eyed primordial god Balor of Ireland who killed with his great eye, to heroes like Find mac Cumail. In Arthurian legend, Arthur defeats a giant on the continent. Sucellos and the Dagda were depicted as naked giants with a hammer or cudgel when they took human forms. Giants were thought to have created various things, such as Stonehenge, or the Giant's Causeway.

Tavisi
*Armament: Ancient Celtic axe, spear, or sword and shield, Hallstatt era.
-Upgrade: A flaming weapon
*Appearance
-Body & Clothing: A ghostly, ashy-colored figure in armor and helmet, variants without either; the armor is irrelevant to their stats. Should appear wounded.
*History: Phantoms in Celtic myth have many origins. These are specifically the souls of dead soldiers killed in battle. Celts regularly prayed to their ancestors, particularly warriors who had passed on, to request their aide in times of strife, though, probably not so literally. They were sometimes depicted with firey weapons of great power, but not always.
*Reference: Very common in Celtic myths all over the Celtic world. Bloody Bones is sometimes said to have once been a Cornish Celtic soldier betrayed in battle and slain by his own captain, for example. The Morrigu (Morrigan) in Gaelic myth and her rival, Donn, both deities of death, had armies of them. Dis Pater on the continent allowed dead soldiers to swear loyalty for him and serve in his army.

Betrix
*Armament: Biting, devouring men whole
*Appearance
-Body: A massive, four legged lizard-like beast, with a very long tail, and webbed toes. A wingless dragon with bronze, yellow, green, or red scales.
-Clothing: ...It's a dragon. Maybe upgrade to have wings?
*History: Dragons in Celtic myth typically do not have wings or breath fire, though some do expell a poisonous mist, and a few very particular ones do expell fire. Some do possess wings, but these mainly appear to have been deities, like Dewi of Cambria. Dragons are, to Celts, largely just enormous, somewhat intelligent serpents or lizards that live in the sea or under hills and mountains. They do not tend to trouble about the business of men unless properly motivated, usually by a chance at treasure, much like many Celtic mercenary warriors. They represented ferocity and loyalty to a tribe, being the children of Teutatis, the tribe-father.
*Reference: Figures of dragons are very common in Celtic art, though the most famous surviving image is probably that of Dewi, which is on the flag of Wales. Figurines of dragons for religious purposes are usually found without wings though. The names applied to them are also typically vague. The Gallic name 'betrix', means 'beast-king', which was also applied to other large monsters, and another common name, sevilis, simply means 'serpent' and was used the same as snake.

Helenes

Cyclops
*Armament: Large wooden club, strength
-Upgrade: Spiked club
*Appearance
-Body: Giant, one eye, small ears, horn varies
-Clothing: Loin cloth, uprgade to crossed belts and thick armbands
*History: A cyclops is a member of a primordial race of giants, each with a single round eye in the middle of its forehead. Commonly, the term "Cyclops" refers to a particular son of Poseidon and Thoosa named Polyphemus who was a Cyclops. Another member of this group of Cyclopes was Telemus, a seer.
*Reference:

Cerberus
*Armament: Sharp teeth
*Appearance
-Body: Three-headed dog
-Upgrades: Add spiked collar and extra snake heads to the tail.
*History: Cerberus or Kerberos was the hound of Hades, a monstrous three-headed dog with a snake for a tail (sometimes said to have 50 or 100 heads) called a hellhound. Other hell hounds included Orthus, his two headed brother. Cerberus guarded the gate to Hades and ensured that spirits of the dead could enter, but none could exit (additionally, no living person was to come into Hades). Among his siblings are Chimera and the Hydra. He is the offspring of Echidna and Typhon.
*Reference:

Centaur
*Armament: Bow/Sword/Spear/Axe
*Appearance
-Body: Horse body with a human torso
-Clothing: None until advanced, then gains crossed belts and finally a sash and armbands
*History: Centaurs are a race of creatures composed of part human and part horse. In early Attic vase-paintings, they are depicted as the torso of a human joined at the (human's) waist to the horse's withers, where the horse's neck would be. This half-human and half-animal composition has led many writers to treat them as liminal beings, caught between the two natures, embodied in contrasted myths, and as the embodiment of untamed nature, as in their battle with the Lapiths, or conversely as teachers, like Chiron.
*Reference:

Gorgons/Medusa
*Armament: Eyes that turn men to stone, sharp talons and tusks
*Appearance
-Body: Wings of gold, a human head with hair of snakes, brazen claws and the tusks of boars
*History: Gorgon was a vicious female monster with sharp fangs and hair of living, venomous snakes.Gorgons are sometimes depicted as having wings of gold, brazen claws, and the tusks of boars. According to the myths, seeing the face of a Gorgon turned the viewer to stone. Homer speaks of only one Gorgon (Medusa, the only mortal gorgon who could not fly), whose head is represented in the Iliad as fixed in the center of the aegis of Zeus.[/i]
*Reference:

Pegasus
*Armament:
*Appearance
-Body: A winged horse, but everyone knows what Pegasus is.
*History: Pegasus was a winged horse that was the son of Poseidon, in his role as horse-god, and the Gorgon Medusa. Athena caught and tamed Pegasus, and presented him to the Muses at Mount Parnassus. After he became the horse of the Muses, he was at the service of the poets. Pegasus aided the hero Bellerophon (or in later versions Perseus) in his fight against both the Chimera and the Amazons.
*Reference:

Iberians

Persians

Manticore
*Armament: Ranged scorpion spines, thundering voice and lion head can attack.
*Appearance
-Body: Although legend says that the manticore possesses a human head, we will use a lion head because it doesn't look weird.
*History: The manticore is a legendary creature similar to the Egyptian Sphinx. It has the body of a red lion, a human head with three rows of sharp teeth, and a trumpet-like voice. Other aspects of the creature vary from story to story. It may be horned or not. The tail is either of a dragon or a scorpion, and it may shoot poisonous spines to either paralyze or kill its victims.
*Reference:

Roc
*Armament: Wings, talons.
*Appearance
-Body: A huge beautiful bird. But not too huge. You could compare the size of 0 A.D.'s ships to their full-size components for a good ratio.
*Notes: This unit will not transport units or carry that stupid tent around in its talons like it does in Age of Mythology. ES was just trying to create an interesting advantage for the Egyptians.
*History: A roc or rukh is an enormous mythical bird of prey in Persian Mythology (that's right, AoM stole from the Persians), often white, reputed to have been able to carry off and eat elephants.
*Reference:

Angha/Simorgh
*Armament:
*Appearance
-Body: A colorful flying peacock with the head of a dog and the claws of a lion.
*History: Simorgh also known as Angha is the modern Persian name for a fabulous, benevolent, mythical flying creature. The figure can be found in all periods of Greater Iranian art and literature, and is evident also in the iconography of medieval Armenia, Byzantium and other regions that were within the sphere of Iranian cultural influence.
*Reference:

Karkadann
*Armament:
*Appearance
-Body: The literal translation to English is rhinoceros, so I'm assuming that it's just a rhino, and we'll decorate it.
*History: The Karkadann was a mythical unicorn-like creature said to live on the grassy plains of India, Persia and North Africa. The karkadann was an extremely ferocious beast, driving away from its territory animals as big as the elephant. It is said it would fight an elephant and kill it. It would then hoist it above its head in triumph using its horn, before going blind as the elephant's fat flowed into its eyes as it melted in the sun.
*Reference:

Huma
*Armament: Healing abilities
*Appearance
-Body: A phoenix-like bird that joins both the male and female natures together in one body, each sharing a wing and a leg.
*History: The Huma, also known as the "bird of paradise," is a Persian mythological bird, similar to the Egyptian phoenix, which consumes itself in fire every few hundred years, only to rise anew from the ashes. It is considered to be a compassionate bird. The touch of the huma bird is said to bring great fortune. The huma joins both the male and female natures together in one body, each sharing a wing and a leg. It avoids killing for food, rather preferring to feed on carrion. The Persians teach that great blessings come to that person on whom the huma's shadow falls.
*Reference:

Romans

Harpy
*Armament: breathes fire and has lion/snake attacks.
*Appearance
-Body from Homer's brief description in the Iliad is the earliest literary reference: "a thing of immortal make, not human, lion-fronted and snake behind, a goat in the middle, and snorting out the breath of the terrible flame of bright fire"; from Hesiod's Theogony following the Homeric description: "a creature fearful, great, swift-footed and strong, who had three heads, one of a grim-eyed lion; in her hinderpart, a dragon; and in her middle, a goat, breathing forth a fearful blast of blazing fire. Although some myths tell us that it was the serphant or either the third head which in some descriptions is a dragon would breath a most dreadful blaze of fire. Here did Pegasus and noble Bellerophon slay."
*History: Harpies were mainly winged death-spirits (Harrison 1903, p 176ff), best known for constantly stealing all food from Phineas. The literal meaning of the word seems to be "that which grabs" which means to grab.The Harpy could also bring life. A Harpy was the mother by the West Wind Zephyros of the horses of Achilles (Iliad xvi. 160). In this context Jane Harrison adduced the notion in Virgil's Georgics that mares became gravid by the wind alone, marvelous to say.
*Reference:

Chimera
*Armament:
*Appearance
-Body: The head of a lion, the tail of snakes and a goat in the middle.
*History: The Chimera is a monstrous creature of Lycia in Asia Minor, which was made of the parts of multiple animals. Chimera was one of the offspring of Typhon and Echidna and sister of such monsters as Cerberus and the Lernaean Hydra.
*Reference:

Griffin
*Armament:
*Appearance
-Body: Body of a lion, head and wings of an eagle
*History: The Griffon (alternate spellings include griffin and gryphon) is a legendary creature with the body of a lion and the head and wings of an eagle. As the lion was traditionally considered the king of the beasts and the eagle the king of the birds, the griffin was thought to be an especially powerful and majestic creature.[3] In antiquity it was a symbol of divine power and a guardian of the divine.
*Reference:

Basilisk
*Armament:
*Appearance
-Body: body and head of a chicken, tail of a snake and the wings of a dragon or eagle (mixed sources).
*History: A basilisk is a legendary reptile reputed to be king of serpents and said to have the power of causing death by a single glance. According to the Naturalis Historia of Pliny the Elder, the basilisk is a small snake that is so venomous that it leaves a wide trail of deadly venom in its wake, and its gaze is likewise lethal. The rooster's crow is deadly to the Basilisk.

Minotaur
*Armament: An axe
*Appearance
-Body: A human with the head, legs and tail of a bull
-Clothing: A loin cloth or the lower half of a tunic, very minimal
-Upgrades: Greaves, armbands, waistbands, light armor similar to gladiators are all upgrading indicators that we'll decide on later.
*Reference:


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#4 oshron

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 03:44 PM

thanks for your replies. i think i'd honestly be happy with just the Greeks, Celts, Egyptians, Norse, and Mesopotamians, probably because those are the best-known mythologies(tbph, though, i took them from a listing in a version of Risk that focused on mythology :))

i do understand that a major problem would be making every single one of them unique, and i honestly am trying to design them in such a way that that is possible, but there ARE some overlapping traits. for example, the Mesoamerican and Cro-Magnons both gain favor by either sacrificing or dancing around a firepit.

however, i have tried pretty hard to make them completely unique. i even invented some new methods of generating favor for a few of the cultures: the celts, for instance, gain favor by having druids plant special trees that their villagers then pray around, and more prayer compels the tree to grow larger and generate more favor(the largest they can get is comparable to a sequoia). i was having trouble with the mesopotamians, but solved that by giving them a passive generation method: simply by building and keeping buildings standing, the mesopotamians gain favor. the romans have a more complicated one that is similar to sacrificing: they build Sacred Fires, a resource drop-site, and villagers will drop resources off there if it is closer than a legit dropsite. 20% of the resources dropped there will be lost and converted into favor(so if a villager dropped 10 food off at a Sacred Fire, only 8 would be added to the food stockpile and the remaining 2 would become favor)

im also trying to reduce complexity by having a number of shared units while still trying to have unique soldiers. i find that the greeks, romans, the two fareastern cultures, and one or two others(cant remember at the moment) have more civ-specific units while civslike the celts and norse share a lot of their units

the definition of civilizations mostly comes from the mythology of each culture; no myth units are shared between more than one civilization. granted, there are some with similar or even the same abilities, but alot are really unique. like the Greek Harpy is a flying raider that can pick up and drop mortal foot units(ie, infantry, villagers, foot ranged, etc) and also has the ability to steal resources from villagers when she picks them up. and the celtic dullahan has the passive ability of being able to force enemy gates to open for him

again, im just doing this to keep myself from being bored, lol, but would appreciate designs that are at least BASED on them for a later 0 AD-like game. most of the designs would probably be re-written to go along with 0 AD's final design(ex: most of the units that ive put research into would be rejected in favor of the units that would be in the final 0 AD product, but super units, id bet, would be based on some of them; id really like it if the Lambton Knight was a Celtic superunit)
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#5 Mythos_Ruler

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 04:22 PM

For the Romans I thought of the idea that they could "buy" Favor at their temples (like buying resources at the Market), because their religion was a very "tit for tat" affair, where treasures and spoils of war were dedicated to the gods and kept in their temples in order to keep their gods pleased. So, perhaps 10 favor would cost 40 of another resource, for a 1:4 ratio.

Edited by Mythos_Ruler, 10 December 2009 - 04:23 PM.

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#6 oshron

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 04:30 PM

that hadnt occurred to me *goes to write it down*
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#7 Archangel_Jack

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 09:24 AM

You could also make it that whoever destroys the temple gets (100 divided by the number of temple)% Gold stored in the temples(Maybe?).

I would gladly help out with a Mythology based RTS/expansion thingy. :)

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#8 oshron

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 09:09 AM

sorry for the late reply

that could maybe work for a type of random map in which your main method of getting resources is looting, but i dont think itd really be feasible for every map

any help you could give would be much appreciated. in fact, ill just tell you all the cultures that i have planned and which ones need the most work. on top of that, if you could tell me some more details from 0 AD that could be used for them(ex: some kind of building or what basic units that are in the game that would be appropriate for that culture), that would be much appreciated, too.

actually, i just realized how much i would need to type, so im gonna break it down into parts. ill give out some more when i get some feedback.

Celts (ive got all the Focuses and myth units for the minor gods down, but im still lacking in mythic techs and god powers. these should mainly be derived from all the peoples who lived in the british isles: the scots, the picts, the irish, the britons, all of em)

Egyptians (again, ive got all the myth units but most of the focuses, techs, and god powers are still missing, and im also lacking in details for the Major Gods: Osiris, Ra, and Set)

Greeks (ive got pretty much everything here, but i still need god powers for Aphrodite and Hephaestus, techs for Athena, Demeter, Dionysus, Hekate, and Persephone)

Mesopotamians (theres still alot i need here: focuses, techs, and god powers for every minor god and at least four more myth units. theres alot that needs to be filled in here, so ill only give the info on request)

Norse (im missing alot of focuses, techs, and god powers here)
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#9 buggy123

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 09:50 PM

I'm not sure if you have already looked into this already, but an obvious source for the Celtic mythology is the Chronicle of King Arthur
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#10 feneur

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 10:03 PM

For info on the current plan for 0 A.D.s units/buildings etc you can take a look at the Design Document which is posted in the Trac wiki.
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#11 oshron

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Posted 20 December 2009 - 11:17 PM

I'm not sure if you have already looked into this already, but an obvious source for the Celtic mythology is the Chronicle of King Arthur


yes, i have looked into it quite a bit. all of the deities are legit celtic gods and goddesses and most of the myth units are from celtic mythology, though there are a number that are based on arthurian legend. gimme a moment (loads up document):

the Green Knight and Lake Maiden are available from the same minor god, Epona, and serve as land and naval units, respectively, and both are taken directly from arthurian myth: the Green Knight was some kind of giant, undead knight in--obviously--green armor that galahad(or gawain; cant remember atm) fought, and the Lake Maiden is an invented myth unit based on the Lady of the Lake, who gave arthur his sword, excalibur, in some versions of the myth

the Questing Beast was encountered by Tristan and was later slain by the knights of Camelot. its available as a myth unit by worshipping Lugus

finally, theres the Vortigern Dragon. this is another invented unit, but is based purely on athurian myth. it was one of the two dragons fighting in a subterranean cave over which king vortigern, one of arthur's predecessors, was trying to build a castle. it is arguably the most powerful celtic myth unit



EDIT: i think ive figured out how the mythology could work with 0 AD's pre-existing elements. instead of training myth units willingly, you have to build temples to a particular deity, and you can only have one for each "rank" of deity. depending on the culture, they could be different (ex: for the christians, there wouldnt be actual temples to the archangels, which serve as the minor gods for that cultures, but some other kind of shrine to them). the temples then gradually generate the myth units at the cost of however many resources as if the god that temple is dedicated to summons it, and weaker myth units take less time than stronger ones, and some would have strict limits(like you could only have three cyclops whereas you could have a dozen centaurs). and a new requirement would come up for advancing to the next stage of civilization: in addition to doing whatever else is required, you also have to build a certain number of temples (like to get from the first stage to the next one, you would have to build a temple to a "lesser" deity (for the greeks, hermes, morpheus, or hestia), and then you could advance once fulfilling the other requirements. to get to the stage after that, you would need to build one to a deity of the next level (ex: demeter, apollo, or hephaestus for the greeks) and then another one for that same age to another one of the next level after that (dionysus, artemis, or ares). next stage, two more temples(first athena/hera/aphrodite, then helios/hekate/persephone). building those last two allows you to advance to the final stage(if there are four in 0 AD, like im imagining here), and then maybe there could be one last temple to your Major God (ex: Zeus, Hades, or Poseidon for the greeks) that allows you train something even stronger than any of your other units (like a Titan as there was in AOM) or maybe it just gives bonuses. in fact, maybe the last one could grant protection against god powers for units near it or in the same territory in it(ex: your enemy tries sending meteors at you using a god power, but your temple to, say, Zeus protects your town from it)

Edited by oshron, 20 December 2009 - 11:44 PM.

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#12 Mythos_Ruler

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 05:42 AM

Hmm... Perhaps Myth Units could be even more special, rare, and powerful -- You get the myth units free upon age-up and cannot train another one of that type until it is dead (it is "summoned" from the Underworld to fight again).
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#13 oshron

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Posted 21 December 2009 - 06:37 AM

my thought was that the myth units that are generally more powerful or rare in mythology, or even the ones that are one of a kind, could be summoned only one at a time. like you could only have one chimera, since there was only one of that particular monster in mythology(as in the classical greek chimera that bellerophon killed), wheras you could get up to three cyclopes (since there were originally only three of these in mythology), and you could get as many centaurs as were spawned for you, though it should probably be capped some point

or it could alternatively be based on what phase each one becomes available in in addition to their level of power, like you can get, like, 20 each of centaurs, cretan bulls, and arachnes (the earliest MUs for the greeks), and get progressively fewer with each new temple. btw, i looked over my document again and saw that cyclopes are actually available much earlier than i remembered, so they would probably be the strongest of the earlier MUs and you could probably only have five at a time. it would probably also be that they would have a severe weakness to something, maybe to javelinists because of the odyssey, where odysseus put out polyphemus' eye with a sharp wooden stake

also, i recall one element from the Percy Jackson & The Olympians books having do with monsters. it is explained in that series that monsters dont actually die; they are just sent to the underworld for however long, which may be from a few days to a several thousand years, and die by exploding into orange powder, or something like that, and they return after a while. that could justify some of the monsters' reapperances

EDIT: oh, another good edit i think would be to change some of the pre-existing 0 AD random/skirmish maps with some mythical elements, like god powers would be invoked by gaia to simulate natural disasters (ie, a tropical island could sometimes explode in a volcanic eruption, or a field will sometimes experience an earthquake, stuff like that) as well as some myth units appearing. i was looking over the intent for the polar map, Northern Lights, in that document i was linked to earlier, and i couldnt help but think that that map would be even cooler/more dangerous if a number of norse myth units were added, like mighty frost giants, ravenous fenris brood wolves, and maybe even a deadly kraken

Edited by oshron, 21 December 2009 - 06:42 AM.

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#14 Hiram

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 04:52 PM

I would say, if you REALLY want to do this, try to do it as diferent as you can from AOM.

Drop the major an minor gods, and ES created myth units, do something original, otherwise, it would be nothing more than a copy, with Pyrogenesis you can let your imagination go :)
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#15 oshron

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 06:35 PM

the thing is, i honestly cant imagine it working any other way that wouldnt simply be copying something else

Edited by oshron, 22 December 2009 - 06:35 PM.

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#16 Hiram

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 05:02 PM

well, thats really disappointing...
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#17 Mythos_Ruler

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 05:30 PM

Personally I would like each culture to have a "Realm of the Gods" from which you can summon monsters and god powers, buying them with your Favor resource. The Greeks would have Mount Olympus, the Norse would have Valhalla, etc. Similar to Home Cities in AOE3.

Edited by Mythos_Ruler, 23 December 2009 - 05:31 PM.

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#18 oshron

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 06:41 PM

ive never played AOE3, so i dont really know how that works

back to the myth units, i think i know how it works: you cant control when you get them, but you still lose resources, though it costs far more than in AOM, like everything costs three times as much favor as before, to make them rarer and they are, to compensate, more deadly. cuz in AOM, after a while, it gets to the point where you just say, "oh, that guys has a minotaur...w/e"
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#19 oshron

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 07:23 AM

hey all. i got bored last night and worked a bit more on the mythology idea. im now thinking that it would be a good idea to redo a number of the civilizations, such as the composite and entirely fictional civilizations. tell me what you think:

Celts = (no changes)

Egyptians = (no changes, except maybe specifically dating to the bible era to coincide with two later cultures)

Greeks = (few changes, like only deriving from greece after the fall of the minoan civilization, with teh trojan war being the earliest date to derive from)

Mesopotamians = replaced with either Sumerians, Assyrians, or Babylonians, but i would still prefer to keep this one as is, though, of course, giving it specific dates

Norse = (no changes, but dated only to the Viking Age)

Chinese = (no changes as yet, since i havent come up with much else, but Han China should probably be a major inspiration)

Cro-Magnons = (no changes)

Hindus = Indus? since this is the earliest known culture from the Indian Subcontinent, it would seem appropriate

Japanese = (no name changes, but this one would probably have the greates span of time, at the longest stretching from the Jomon period to pre-gunpowder Japan, like pre-Tokugawa Japan, or at the shortest from the Yamato period to the Warring States Period, which i think would be preferred. or, it could be from the origin of japanese civilization to the introduction of buddhism, since the japanese pantheon is going to derive solely from shinto)

Mesoamericans = Mayans, Aztecs. perhaps this could be divided into two seperate civilizations, with one replacing the dwarven Svartalfheim culture. the aztecs would probably have better military and buildings while the mayans would have better technology and mythology. at the greatest, this would date from stretch from 1000 BC to pre-columbian Mexico

Christians = this would probably be the latest of the cultures, deriving from the rise of christianity in the Roman Empire possibly to either the end of the crusades or to when the christians began replacing the pagan cultures, maybe the latest being to when they began demonizing Thor

Hittites = obviously, from the rise to the fall of the hittite civilization, with troy being the earliest or latest date depending on when the hittites rose or fell (im not too sure on teh date at the moment)

Levantines = redone to their former name of Semitic Peoples, or maybe just to Semites. the culture itself is meant to be a composite of the Israelites/Hebrews, the Philistines(and other "antagonistic" cultures from the regions around israel; i only say antagonistic because this one derives alot from the old testament, where the hebrews are teh goodguys and the philitines, etc, are badguys), and the Phoenicians/Carthaginians. as such, this would date from around the origins of judaism, the Creation (:)), or the flood to either the fall of carthage or the rise of christianity

Persians = PERHAPS redone to Medes, but it would otherwise be exactly teh same, deriving solely from zoroastrianism for the pantheon, so it would date from the rise to the fall of that religion

Romans = THIS one will be MUCH harder to date. im thinking that maybe the roman culture here will focus just on the western empire, not only for simplicity's sake but also because the eastern empire was mostly greek, so it would date from the founding of rome to the original fall of the western empire

Polynesians = the only other name that could possibly fit here would be Pacific. in any case, this would date from the original colonization of australia by the current natives to the earliest date when those peoples came into contact with foreigners. this one would militarily derive alot from the maori and philippine cultures, the pantheon from various polynesian mythologies, and the myth units would be derived not only from the mythology but also from the pleistocene wildlife of australia, especially those rumored to still be around, such as the Megalania, a giant carnivorous lizard thats basically a komodo dragon on steroids

Svartalfheim = ive completely given up on the dwarf civilization

Slavs = no changes. at the latest, this would derive from the historical pagan lithuania, which resisted christianity long after the rest of europe had converted

Amerindians = i'd LIKE to keep in this culture, but maybe it would be a good idea to derive it more from one specific tribe than just all of them at once. if nothing else, it could derive just from cultures in eastern north america, because those are the tribes that the vikings would have encountered

Serbonians = again, i'd like to keep this one. this would basically be greece before the mycenaeans, ie the minoans, but it would also derive alot from the mysterious "sea peoples" culture that may have caused the fall of the minoan and/or hittite cultures, but for the game, it would also derive alot from the atlantis myth. in the current pantheon i have set up for it, two thirds of it are derived from greek oceanic deities, especially obscure ones, and the remaining third are fictional olmec gods. these will probably be replaced.


i also came up with a new idea: cultures that are dated only to the BC years must wait longer than other cultures to build additional civic centers, but, in exchange, their mythology is even stronger
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#20 Aldandil

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Posted 28 January 2010 - 04:57 PM

I like the idea of doing this, it sounds like it would be cool.

For time period, you can make the Egyptians late New Kingdom, and the Greeks late Bronze Age, which puts the Greeks during the time when most of their myths were set (and further differentiates them from whatever Iron Age Greeks 0AD will have). That would make Egyptians and Greeks contemporaneous.

The Mesoamericans would be tougher, since the Olmecs started around 1200 BC, and I don't know when the Celts and Norse became archaeologically recognizable culture groups. So another option would be to set it around 1000 BC, that allows the Egyptians, Greeks, Mesopotamians, and Mesoamericans to be contemporary, and makes the Norse, Persians, and Celts more reasonable additions.

It would be neat to base the Romans off of the early Republic, before they started expanding, or even to bring in some Italic flavor from the Oscans, Sabines, and Umbrians.

Of course to some extent the time can be totally imaginary, since it is mythic, but having a good time period to base each culture off of would help keep them looking accurate instead of eclectically random.


For gaining power or favor from the gods.. oh, that makes it very difficult to use the Olmec, since their writing is undeciphered. Hm. Well, for the Greeks I'd use the 12 Olympians, and for the Egyptians I'd use the Re, Osiris, Isis, Set, Horus, Ptah, Nephthys, Anubis, Sakhmet, Hathor, Thoth, and maybe Geb, Nut, Shu, and Tefnut if you can think up what they do. Except I would try to use the actual Egyptian names for them. For some of those that I named there are linguistic reconstructions of how their names might have been pronounced in the Old Kingdom, and for all of them there's the possibility to use the standard transcription of their hieroglyphic names, instead of the Greek names I used for most of them in this post. Thus Re' or Re'u, Wesir, `Aset, Setekh or Sutekh (?), Her or Heru, Ptah, Nebet-hut, Inpu, Sekhmet, Hut-her or Hut-hert, Djehuty, Geb, Nut, Shu, Tefnut.


Concerning the North American and Pacific cultures, they should definitely be based off of individual cultures, not off of a mishmash of an enormous number of very different cultures in a whole continent or everything from Polynesia, New Guinea, Australia, the Philippines, and Micronesia combined. You can do this to some extent with Mesoamerica, which is a geographically limited group of related cultures with many customs, foods, buildings, weapons, and religious traits in common, but you can't do that with something as huge and diverse as North America, or "the Pacific." I'd say pick one culturally related part of North America, like "upper northwest coast" or "New England" or "southwest" or "Iroquois." For "the Pacific" I would say, pick something much more culturally related such as "southern Polynesia" or "northwest Australia" or "highland New Guinea" or "Filipinos." All of the Pacific is the equivalent of "all of Europe, Mesopotamia, India, and Russia mixed together" in terms of cultural and mythological diversity. In terms of linguistic diversity, New Guinea alone is probably the equivalent of all of North America.



Myth Units: The Harpies, Chimaera, Minotaur, Basilisks, and Griffins are all Greek, and in fact Griffins could also be available to Mesopotamians, Hittites, Persians, and Egyptians, since all of them had legends or images of them. They would look slightly different for each culture, in that case. If Griffins were only available to one culture, I would give them to the Mesopotamians. Also, the Harpies don't breathe fire, nor resemble lions, in any myth I've read. You might have them confused with Chimaera. Myth units that die could be summoned again from the underworld, but the whole orange powder thing is fantasy, not genuine Greek myth. I do like the idea that unique monsters (Minotaur, Chimaera, Cretan Bull, etc.) should be unique, one-at-a-time things. Arachne... I don't see her as a myth unit. She's just a woman who was changed into an ordinary spider. The Cyclopes could number as many as the Centaurs, since Polyphemos had many Cyclops neighbors.
Titans should NOT be a myth unit. While it's a common misconception spread by fantasy that they're giants or monsters, in Greek stories and beliefs they were gods, just like the Olympians. None of them except Rhea or Helios was important enough to be worth putting in the game, and even Helios had very little actual worship.
Having myth units granted by the gods seems a bit weird to me, because some monsters (such as Chimaera and Giants) are enemies of the gods, and some (such as Harpies, Cretan Bull, Klazomenaian Sow, Minotaur, and Centaurs) were sent by the gods to punish mortals, not to help them in battle.

Egyptians can have Akhu, Hierosphinxes, Kriosphinxes, Androsphinxes, Sagu, Setjau, and Set-animals, though I have no idea what they would do, only what they look like. Fire-breathing Uraei and dragons of many possible appearances are easier to figure out: they breathe fire.
Mesopotamians can have Sirrush, Humbaba, and so on. I have a list somewhere of the animal-like possibilities for each group that I could post, it would be very long though -- probably too long except as an attachment.



To Kimball: Where can I read about those Celtic mythic creatures, please? I'd like to learn more about them.

Edited by Aldandil, 28 January 2010 - 11:15 PM.

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