Light Style© by Fisana

Jump to content


Photo

Unit And Building Names


  • Please log in to reply
151 replies to this topic

#1 Davarish

Davarish

    Discens

  • Community Members
  • Pip
  • 11 posts

Posted 07 April 2011 - 03:49 PM

Hello and congratulations.
After i played the Hellenes (Hellines) i noticed that some buildings and units are not named correctly. For example:

Oikon should be Oikos
Sitobolion should be Sitovoleion
Strategion should be Stratigeion
Limenos should be Limenas or Limin
Pule should be Puli or Thura

and for some units is not clear whether you want to use modern Greek or ancient Greek like for example:

Plio which is modern greek word for ship so it should change to the ancient greek word naus. The same goes for the unit Emporiko plio
Also Trieres should be Triiris

Some other units here and there are also a bit confusing like the Spartiate which should be either Spartan in English or Spartiatis in Greek.

Anyway, great game and hope you keep your efforts up. Great graphics especially the sea reflections and all...and great music very atmospheric great great
  • 0

#2 Mythos_Ruler

Mythos_Ruler

    Senator

  • WFG Retired
  • 14,965 posts

Posted 07 April 2011 - 05:14 PM

Great suggestions and fixes, Davarish! I will implement most of them now. :victory: I am not an expert in the Greek language and mostly had to rely on sporadic advice from a few friends who are Hellenophones and Internet research. :) What would "Fishing Ship" be? Something Naus?
  • 0

#3 Davarish

Davarish

    Discens

  • Community Members
  • Pip
  • 11 posts

Posted 07 April 2011 - 06:35 PM

Great suggestions and fixes, Davarish! I will implement most of them now. :victory: I am not an expert in the Greek language and mostly had to rely on sporadic advice from a few friends who are Hellenophones and Internet research. :) What would "Fishing Ship" be? Something Naus?


The unit Fishing Ship would be Alieutikin Naus
  • 0

#4 SMST

SMST

    Triplicarius

  • Community Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 536 posts

Posted 09 April 2011 - 11:52 AM

May I interrupt? Davarish, you are wronging correct things (Oikon, Sitobolion etc.) The choices you make seem to be modern Greek to me, but most of the stuff you wanted to correct IS correct in Ancient Greek.

"Ploion" may be a good word for ship, like "naus", which is the only thing you are correct about.
  • 0


Posted Image
Platon - it's like Communism without the noble goal.


#5 Davarish

Davarish

    Discens

  • Community Members
  • Pip
  • 11 posts

Posted 09 April 2011 - 12:51 PM

May I interrupt? Davarish, you are wronging correct things (Oikon, Sitobolion etc.) The choices you make seem to be modern Greek to me, but most of the stuff you wanted to correct IS correct in Ancient Greek.

"Ploion" may be a good word for ship, like "naus", which is the only thing you are correct about.


Let me explain

1.) In Greek the words that define space like buildings or rooms use an "ei" when they end as "eion". In game there is a building named "Anakleion" that shows that. That is why the correct is for the Strategion to become Stratigeion and for the Sitobolion to become Sitovoleion.

2.) The word Oikon is also incorrect cause it is only used when we say kat-oikon which means inside the house. The correct word is Oikos that means House.
http://el.wiktionary...%BA%CE%BF%CF%82

3.) The word Limenos is wrong. The modern Greek word is Limenas and the Ancient Greek word is Limin.
http://el.wiktionary...%BC%CE%AE%CE%BD

4.) The word Pule is almost the modern Greek word Pyli that means gate. The ancient Greek word for gate is Thyra. From the word Thyra comes the word thyreus that means escutcheon
http://el.wiktionary...%8D%CF%81%CE%B1

5.) Trieres is also wrong. The correct in ancient Greek is Triiris and the same it is when you refer to many ships of that kind. One Triiris, two hundred Triiris.
http://el.wiktionary...%81%CE%B7%CF%82
  • 0

#6 SMST

SMST

    Triplicarius

  • Community Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 536 posts

Posted 09 April 2011 - 01:01 PM

Okay, you are right about Oikos, sorry about that.:)

However, most of your corrections use Modern Greek spelling, like "triiris", which ist "trieres" in Ancient Greek. "Limin" would be "limen". "Sitovolion" is "Sitobolion". (the b-Sound changed into a v-sound during history) I'm not sure about "strategion/strategeion" alltogether, this seems to be something made up. I would suggest "stratopedion", meaning "army camp", though it refers more to a temporary camp than to a stationary.

"tyra" means "door" (in fact, the German word "Tr" is derived from that, I think), and "pyle" (as it should be written, not "pule") means gate. Maybe "tyra" can mean gate, but "pyle" would be more common. (Theromopylai!)

Sorry I was harsh, earlier.

Edited by SMST, 09 April 2011 - 01:02 PM.

  • 0


Posted Image
Platon - it's like Communism without the noble goal.


#7 Davarish

Davarish

    Discens

  • Community Members
  • Pip
  • 11 posts

Posted 09 April 2011 - 01:21 PM

Well it is ok to be harsh as long as you are constructive. Let me give further explanations.

1.) You say that triiris should stay trieres. The greek word is Τριήρης. Both ι and η greek charachters are spelled as i in english so i spelled it as Triiris. It may sound better as Trieres so lets leave it this way you are correct.

2.) The v and b that you say changed during history is wrong assumption. Sitovoleion comes from the word sitos (σίτος) and the verb vallo (βάλλω). Σίτος means wheat. βάλλω means stick or put or set. You'll see that if you do the google translation. So it is v and not b. There is no ballo. So we have the word Σιτοβολλείον that in english is spelled Sitovoleion right?

3.) Stratigeion (not Strategeion) is the word Στρατηγείον and is something different from stratopedo (Στρατόπεδο) which is the correct word instead of the stratopedion that you used so..whatever. Stratopedo is the army camp. Stratigeion is the "General's place" if you know what i mean...

4.) Thyra...Pyle whatever...i am fine with both. Both are correct as far as i am concerned

5.) Limin is not limen cause the ancient Greek word is λιμήν so...it is Limin. It should be λιμέν to spell it limen...

I hope using Greek doesn't make my points more confusing. I do it for better understanding...

Edited by Davarish, 09 April 2011 - 01:25 PM.

  • 0

#8 SMST

SMST

    Triplicarius

  • Community Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 536 posts

Posted 09 April 2011 - 01:33 PM

I am perfectly able to read Greek characters, so that's no problem for me.

η is a character that was used in Ancient Greek to describe a long "e"-vowel (ε would be a short e-vowel). It has changed to a long "i"-vowel (which is very similar phonetically) in Modern Greek. So η should be transscribed to "e" or maybe "" for the purpose of this game.

This explains the confusion about Trieres - Triiris, Strategion - Stratigion, Limen - Limin. As I said, it should be the "e"-sound in this game.

βάλλω/βάλλειν can mean many things - to put, to set, but also to throw, from which meaning the English word "ball" derives, which shows that β was originally indeed "b" and not "v".
  • 0


Posted Image
Platon - it's like Communism without the noble goal.


#9 Davarish

Davarish

    Discens

  • Community Members
  • Pip
  • 11 posts

Posted 09 April 2011 - 01:43 PM

Ok but since Sitovoleion is the building where you put or set the wheat and not throw it and since we are talking about ancient Greek (βάλλω "v") and not modern English (ball "b") shouldn't we name it Sitovoleion instead of Sitobolion?

As for the "e" you may be right there cause it sounds better like that.

Nothing more. Thanks for the constructive conversation. I hope the developers can figure out and filter out what we discussed and give the correct names to everything that needs so

Edited by Davarish, 09 April 2011 - 01:43 PM.

  • 0

#10 SMST

SMST

    Triplicarius

  • Community Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 536 posts

Posted 09 April 2011 - 01:51 PM

Ok but since Sitovoleion is the building where you put or set the wheat and not throw it and since we are talking about ancient Greek (βάλλω "v") and not modern English (ball "b") shouldn't we name it Sitovoleion instead of Sitobolion?


That's exactly the point.:) The word "ball" derived from βάλλω at a earlier time, showing that the word had a "b"-sound in ancient days, instead of the "v"-sound it has today.
The exact maning of βάλλω (which I spell as ball) is not important here, I just wanted to show you the ethymological evolution, which can allow us to link to the phonetic evolution of a character.

EDIT:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta

Oh, I agree about "Sitoboleion", though "i"- and "ei"-syllabes are exchangable most of the time.

Edited by SMST, 09 April 2011 - 01:53 PM.

  • 0


Posted Image
Platon - it's like Communism without the noble goal.


#11 Davarish

Davarish

    Discens

  • Community Members
  • Pip
  • 11 posts

Posted 09 April 2011 - 02:05 PM

So to sum up

Oikon becomes Oikos
Sitobolion becomes Sitoboleion
Strategion becomes Strategeion
Limenos becomes Limen
Pule becomes Pyle
Plio becomes Naus

Everything else stays as it is. Do you agree?
  • 0

#12 SMST

SMST

    Triplicarius

  • Community Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 536 posts

Posted 09 April 2011 - 02:16 PM

Sounds fine.:)
  • 0


Posted Image
Platon - it's like Communism without the noble goal.


#13 Mythos_Ruler

Mythos_Ruler

    Senator

  • WFG Retired
  • 14,965 posts

Posted 09 April 2011 - 11:57 PM

Intriguing discussion. I'd say it was one of the most thoughtful discussions on the subject in a long time. Thanks guys! I'll be sure to rename these items based upon the agreed terms. (y)
  • 0

#14 Erutuon

Erutuon

    Discens

  • Community Members
  • Pip
  • 18 posts

Posted 15 April 2011 - 11:22 PM

Yay! I wanted to start a topic like this, since I noticed some of the same names that need to be corrected. I studied Ancient Greek and Latin in high school and have read a lot about Greek and Latin pronunciation and word-formation in order to improve the articles on Wikipedia.

You guys got several of the things I noticed, but I have a few more suggestions, with the help of the nifty online lexicon (see the links).

Naus is an Ancient Greek word, as you say, but it was apparently not used for fishing ships, more for warships and sometimes merchant ships, and it wasn't common in the Hellenistic era. Ploion refers to any floating vessel, but most commonly to merchant or fishing vessels, and ploion halieutikon is the specific phrase for "fishing boat".

Stavlos would be spelled staulos in Ancient Greek (alpha-upsilon was pronounced au in Ancient Greek, and av/af in Modern Greek), but it isn't an Ancient Greek word; it's only Modern Greek. I'm not sure what the correct Ancient Greek word is, though.

Pentekontor should be pentekonteros or pentekontoros: it needs the Greek -os ending.

Emporiko naus isn't the Ancient Greek phrase for merchant ship. I don't know what the correct word is, though. Perhaps ploion phortegikon? Phortegikon is an adjective from phortegos, merchant (from phortos "cargo" and the root ag- or eg- "bring"), so it literally means "ship of a cargo-hauler". Or maybe phortis, which is an adjective meaning "for cargo", but was used as a noun "cargo ship".

Legionnaire should be legionarius. Legionnaire is the French form coming from Latin legionarius, "belonging to a legion".

So, those are some suggestions. I think there are more. If I remember them, I'll maybe post them.
  • 0

#15 Teronious

Teronious

    Tiro

  • Community Newbie
  • 2 posts

Posted 24 April 2011 - 12:18 PM

Whilst I appreciate the use of the correct naming even if it be ancient or modern Greek, the problem being, assume one wants to move forward a group of archers, am expected to know the term for archers. Is this going to be the same for Greek, Roman or Babylonioan etc. Any time-line extension of the game which I feel sure will come needs to be flexible. If the current name is held as part of a unit's data then one would need to modify the data which may not be readilty available. If the unit is given a unique number then this value can be used to look up a dictionary and the unit's name extracted from it. This would have the added advantage that any literal used within the game can also be part of the dictionary and can be referenced by number. Assume therefore that a somebody likes an archer to be called an archer. At game time the preference for say Medieval naming convention can be chosen instead of Greek. This also allows the literals to be translated into any other language ie French, german giving the game a truely international status. The langauge of choice can be made at the start of the game and set up in preferences the lierals can be extracted from the dictionary to give a mini dictionary which is used whilst the game is running. This technique of a large dictionary containing all literals, extracted to a mini dictionary at load time, and accessed by the programs during run time worked well within a global system written and designed by me for a large well known multi-national toy company. This is just a thought but as people are talking about rewriting code may be this idea could be researched.
  • 0

#16 Mythos_Ruler

Mythos_Ruler

    Senator

  • WFG Retired
  • 14,965 posts

Posted 24 April 2011 - 04:25 PM

Units are also called by their generic names in the tooltips.
  • 0

#17 SMST

SMST

    Triplicarius

  • Community Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 536 posts

Posted 24 April 2011 - 07:25 PM

I think there could maybe a special game mode in the options that "simplifies" the game. (similar to friend and foe colors) In which the units could be given a generic name substitute instead of the ethnic name. A Peltastes Thrakikos would be a "Thracian Peltast" or a Gaesata would be a "Celtic Spearman". This might be something to consider, as I personally see the use of ethnic names in general as a two-edged sword: whilst it gives truly historical flavor to the game, it may also confuse people. (I, for myself, am fairly familiar with anything Latin, Greek or Spanish, but I frown upon the names of the Persian or Carthaginian units.:P)
  • 0


Posted Image
Platon - it's like Communism without the noble goal.


#18 Mythos_Ruler

Mythos_Ruler

    Senator

  • WFG Retired
  • 14,965 posts

Posted 24 April 2011 - 08:42 PM

The benefit of the ethnic names is that it simplifies localization slightly. But we'll see how it shakes out. :)
  • 0

#19 Mythos_Ruler

Mythos_Ruler

    Senator

  • WFG Retired
  • 14,965 posts

Posted 09 July 2011 - 07:37 PM

We've decided to go with a new <GenericName> and <SpecificName> paradigm.

So, for instance:

* Generic Name: Macedonian Pikeman.
* Specific Name: Pezhetairos.

* Generic Name: Cretan Archer.
* Specific Name: Toxotes Kretikoi.

Those come from here, my Macedonian faction profile:

http://www.wildfireg...showtopic=13560

It would be nice to get constructive criticism of the Greek words contained therein. ;)
  • 0

#20 SMST

SMST

    Triplicarius

  • Community Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 536 posts

Posted 10 July 2011 - 11:53 AM

It's "Toxotes Kretikos", if you are referring to a single archer. Same goes for any "-oi"-ending, which is the masculine plural, while "-os" is the masculine singular.

And it's nice to have that option. As I see it from the current SVN-Version, the feature works out nicely for me.:)

Edited by SMST, 10 July 2011 - 11:56 AM.

  • 0


Posted Image
Platon - it's like Communism without the noble goal.