93 replies to this topic

[JuliusColtranePille]

Brightgalrs, on 23 September 2011 - 01:48 PM, said:

English
Basque
"Iberian"

port
kaiatik
kaitik

fortress
gotorleku
gotoŕleku

wall
horma
orma

gate
atea
ate

market
merkatu
merkatu

barracks
kuartela
kauŕtela

house
etxe
ete

stable
egonkorra
egonkoŕa

field
eremua
erema

mill
errota
eŕota

farmstead
baserria
baseŕia

tower
dorrea
doŕe

temple
tenplu
tenblu

yeah sounds cool. i have always been disappointed about the latinic-"pseudo-iberian"-ethnic-names

[Pedro Falcão]

i read at wikipedia that some iberian words started with "p" where most celtic words started with a vowel. For instance, the celtic word "orcom" (that means pig), in iberian was written (and spoken) "porcom" (coincidence or not, in portuguese, the word for pig is "porco", and "puerco" for spanish).

[Mythos_Ruler]

Pedro Falcão, on 23 September 2011 - 07:34 PM, said:

i read at wikipedia that some iberian words started with "p" where most celtic words started with a vowel. For instance, the celtic word "orcom" (that means pig), in iberian was written (and spoken) "porcom" (coincidence or not, in portuguese, the word for pig is "porco", and "puerco" for spanish).

Pork in English.

[zaphzaph]

A other suggestion.
In fact, in the Carthaginian army, the elite cavalry called "Sacred Band of Astarté"
and the pikemen of elite called "Sacred band of Baal"
It is a possibility

[Erutuon]

Mythos_Ruler, on 26 August 2011 - 07:03 PM, said:

About the plural stuff, I already knew that. Simple mistake. But all of the other corrections you list there are very helpful!!! Thanks, m8!

Depends on what kind of font support we have. I'd rather go ahead and use all of the accents and circumflexes necessary in the "ethnic" <SpecificName> names, then default to "easier" English/Latinized forms for the <GenericName>.

EDIT: Speaking of "Thrax," a character in my screenplay, a Thracian slave, is named Thrax.

EDIT2: I added many of your suggested changes: http://www.wildfireg...showtopic=13560

Well, if you'd like to fully represent the Ancient Greek spelling and pronunciation, the transcription system needs to be changed a bit: macron for long vowels, and acute, grave, and circumflex for the three types of pitch accent. Combinations of acute and macron, grave and macron, and circumflex and macron are required where accent falls on a long vowel. The diaeresis might be needed, but it only occurs rarely. Here are some comparisons of the current transcription with the new system:

Sphendonêtês Rhodikos -> Sphendonḗtēs Rhodikós (Σφενδονήτης Ῥοδικός) or ... Rhódios (... Ῥόδιος)<li>Ploion Halieutikon -> Ploîon Halieutikón (Πλοῖον Ἁλιευτικόν)
Switching to this system would require changing every word in every unit name, since every word has an accent that needs to be added. Keeping the current system would only require adding a few circumflexes for long vowels.

So what do you think? Do you want to stick with the simpler transcription system (circumflexes for long vowels) or go with the fuller system?

Depending on which system you choose, I can help by listing the unit names that need to be changed. It might take a while before I get back to it, though

[Mythos_Ruler]

Erutuon, on 26 November 2011 - 10:57 PM, said:

Well, if you'd like to fully represent the Ancient Greek spelling and pronunciation, the transcription system needs to be changed a bit: macron for long vowels, and acute, grave, and circumflex for the three types of pitch accent. Combinations of acute and macron, grave and macron, and circumflex and macron are required where accent falls on a long vowel. The diaeresis might be needed, but it only occurs rarely. Here are some comparisons of the current transcription with the new system:

Sphendonêtês Rhodikos -> Sphendonḗtēs Rhodikós (Σφενδονήτης Ῥοδικός) or ... Rhódios (... Ῥόδιος)<li>Ploion Halieutikon -> Ploîon Halieutikón (Πλοῖον Ἁλιευτικόν)
Switching to this system would require changing every word in every unit name, since every word has an accent that needs to be added. Keeping the current system would only require adding a few circumflexes for long vowels.

So what do you think? Do you want to stick with the simpler transcription system (circumflexes for long vowels) or go with the fuller system?

Depending on which system you choose, I can help by listing the unit names that need to be changed. It might take a while before I get back to it, though

Maybe list both ways if you can so we can make a decision on readability?

[Erutuon]

All right, here are more examples: some unit names in English first, then the full transcription system, and finally the simpler system.

Foot Companion
Pezétairos
Pezetairos

Agrianian Peltast
Peltástēs Agrianikós
Peltastês Agrianikos

Rhodian Slinger
Sphendonḗtēs Rhódios
Sphendonêtês Rhodios

Cretan Archer
Toxótēs Krētikós
Toxotês Krêtikos

Thracian Heavy Cavalry
Xystophóros Thrākikós or Thrāx (Thrāikikós or Thrāix, if we transcribe iota subscript)
Xystophoros Thrâx

Thessalian Scout
Pródromos Thessalikós
Prodromos Thessalikos

Macedonian Woman
Gýnē
Gynê

Priest
Hiereús
Hiereus

Merchant
Émporos
Emporos

Fishing Boat
Ploîon Halieutikón
Ploion Halieutikon

Trade Ship
Naûs Emporikḗ
Naus Emporikê

Bireme
Diḗrēs
Diêrês

Trireme
Triḗrēs
Triêrês

Siege Tower
Helépolis
Helepolis

Stone Thrower
Petróbolos
Petrobolos

Shield Bearer
Hypaspítēs
Hypaspitês

Companion Cavalry
Hetaîros
Hetairos

Greek Cataphract
Katáphraktos (or Híppos Katáphraktos)
Kataphraktos (Or Hippos Kataphraktos)

Armoured War Elephant
Eléphās Katáphraktos
Elephâs Kataphraktos

Egyptian Levy Pikeman
Mákhimos Aigýptios
Makhimos Aigyptios

War Elephant
Eléphās Polemikós
Elephâs Polemikos

Juggernaut
Tessarakontḗrēs
Tessarakontêrês

Philip II
Phílippos II (or ... B' in Greek numerals), Phílippos B' ho Makedṓn
Philippos II

Alexander the Great
Mégās Aléxandros
Megâs Alexandros

Demetrius the Besieger
Dēmḗtrios Poliorkḗtēs
Dêmêtrios Poliorkêtês

Seleucus the Victor
Séleukos I Nīkā́tōr (or A' in Greek numerals)
Seleukos I Nîkâtôr

Antiochus the Great
Antíokhos III Mégās (or G' in Greek numerals)
Antiokhos Megâs

Antiochus the Magnificent
Antíokhos IV Epiphanḗs (or D' in Greek numerals)
Antiokhos IV Epiphanês

Ptolemy the Savior
Ptolemaîos I Sōtḗr (or A' in Greek numerals)
Ptolemaios I Sôtêr

Ptolemy IV Philopator
Ptolemaîos IV Philopátōr (or Z' in Greek numerals)
Ptolemaios IV Philopatôr

Cleopatra VII
Kleopátrā VII (or Z' in Greek numerals), Kleopátrā Philopátōr
Kleopatrâ Philopatôr

I include the Greek numerals with the names of rulers since using Roman numerals in Greek is somewhat odd. On Wikipedia, though, numbers are not included in the Greek translations of rulers' names (the only exception being with all the Philips of Macedon); only the epithets are. Perhaps most numbers were only assigned in modern times, and should not be included in the Greek at all.

Well anyway, what do you think about readability of the full transcription?

Edited by Erutuon, 27 November 2011 - 02:04 AM.

[Mythos_Ruler]

The readability is there. Not much difference. We can go with the full transcriptions. Can you go through the Hellenes profile here and see what you can list?

http://trac.wildfire...Civ%3A_Hellenes

If you do, then I will change all of the <SpecificNames> to match your list.

[tribalbeat]

I know it's minor, but can you change "Gallic Dun" to "Fürstensitz?"

[Erutuon]

Mythos_Ruler, on 27 November 2011 - 02:36 AM, said:

The readability is there. Not much difference. We can go with the full transcriptions. Can you go through the Hellenes profile here and see what you can list?

http://trac.wildfire...Civ%3A_Hellenes

If you do, then I will change all of the <SpecificNames> to match your list.

All right, here's the list. I've changed some things in addition to adding diacritics. Corrected nationality adjectives, replaced Modern Greek words with Ancient Greek, used Athenian rather than Dorian/Aeolic forms (naos -> neos). These larger changes are marked with asterisks. I can't figure out what the word for corral should be; stavlos is definitely not Ancient Greek, though.

I'll probably need to do a few more changes, but I need to get to bed...


Greek Hoplite (translation: Heavy Infantryman?)
Hoplī́tēs Hellēnikós

Thracian Peltast (translation: Light Infantryman?)
Peltastḗs Thrâx*

Cretan Archer
Toxótēs Krētikós

Greek Cavalry
Hippeús

Thessalian Scout
Pródromos

Greek Woman
Gýnē

Priest
Hiereús

Merchant
Émporos

Fishing Boat
Ploîon Halieutikón

Trading Ship
Ploîon Phortēgikón*

Pentekonter
Pentēkónteros

Trireme
Triḗrēs

Siege Tower
Helépolis

Stone Thrower
Lithóbolos

Bolt Shooter
Oxybelḗs

Spartan Hoplite
Spartiā́tēs

Athenian Light Hoplite
Ékdromos Athēnaïkós

Macedonian Pikeman
Pezétairos

Companion Cavalry
Hetaîros

Themistocles
Themistoklês

Leonidas
Leōnídēs

Xenophon
Xenophôn

Philip II
Phílippos B' ho Makedṓn

Alexander the Great
Mégās Aléxandros

Demetrius the Besieger
Dēmḗtrios Poliorkḗtēs

Household
Oîkos

Granary
Sītobólion

Field
Ágros* (word for Granary was repeated here by mistake)

Corral
Aulḗ, Épaulos, Ktēnotropheîon* (fairly literal translations: yard, extra-yard, herd-feeding-place)

Warehouse
Apothḗkē*

Outpost
Pyrgíon

Civic Centre
Agorā́

Dock
Limḗn

Temple
Neṓs

Barracks
Stratēgeîon

Marketplace
Empórion

City Wall
Teîkhos

Tower
Pýrgos

Gate
Pýlai* (plural, since singular refers to one door in gate rather than whole gate)

Fortress
Teíkhisma

Theater
Théātron

Gymnasium
Gymnásion

Council Chamber
Prytaneîon

[Erutuon]

A correction and choice on which word to go with:


Field
Agrós

Corral
Épaulos (aule is ambiguous with just a courtyard, ktenotropheion is too long)


In playing the game I noticed that the Greek Hoplite had its full transliteration added, but the combining acute accent on the ī́ was not displaying — there was instead a box after the ī. I haven't updated my SVN recently, but if the font does not display combining acutes, perhaps we should not add them. But I need to see how the game is after I update it first.

[Mythos_Ruler]

Erutuon, on 06 December 2011 - 12:16 AM, said:

A correction and choice on which word to go with:


Field
Agrós

Corral
Épaulos (aule is ambiguous with just a courtyard, ktenotropheion is too long)


In playing the game I noticed that the Greek Hoplite had its full transliteration added, but the combining acute accent on the ī́ was not displaying — there was instead a box after the ī. I haven't updated my SVN recently, but if the font does not display combining acutes, perhaps we should not add them. But I need to see how the game is after I update it first.

Yeah, the font is missing a few of the necessary accented letters. We had this issue with a couple of Carthaginian names as well. Anyone have an idea how this was resolved?

Addendum:

I changed all of the <SpecificNames> per your lists. Just need one more for the Rhodian Slinger.

[feneur]

Mythos_Ruler, on 06 December 2011 - 09:58 AM, said:

Yeah, the font is missing a few of the necessary accented letters. We had this issue with a couple of Carthaginian names as well. Anyone have an idea how this was resolved?

It was added =) I think Ben did it last time. If you know the Unicode code for that specific letter the easiest way to make sure it's done is to create a ticket called something like "Add Unicode character ###" to Trac (This was the last time I believe: http://trac.wildfire....com/ticket/960 So it seems it was Philip who fixed it, but Ben who reported it.)

[Ykkrosh]

In #960 the issue was that there's lots of different ways to write a character, and the font supports one way but the XML file used a different way, so I just changed the XML.

"ī́" is harder because there's no Unicode codepoint for i-macron-acute. We can't support combining characters in the current bitmap font renderer even if the font supports it (since they rely on fancy OpenType features which we can't interpret at run-time); maybe it would be best to make the renderer support multi-codepoint sequences, then we can store the combined "ī́" glyph in the bitmap and use it when necessary. It'd be good if someone could file a Trac ticket listing all the known font problems

[Erutuon]

I don't know how to create a ticket or describe the issue with full technical precision, but basically the vowels a, e, i, o, u, y with macron and acute are required by the new Greek transliteration system. E and o with macron and acute have codepoints in Unicode (ḗ, ṓ), but a, i, u, y with macron and acute do not, so I wrote them using the macron'd version (ā ī ū ȳ) with an added combining acute accent. The combining acute accent doesn't work in the game, so for these last characters we need a workaround.

If the solution chosen is multi-codepoint sequences, you might need to check if the combining acute renders well. In my browser, it renders badly: the acute on ā́ (macron'd character plus combining acute) is too high and too short when compared with the one on ḗ (macron-acute character). Hopefully that would not be true in the game, since it looks tacky.

[Erutuon]

I updated my SVN, started a game, and checked the unit names. In addition to the combining acute, the e and o with macron and acute also don't display correctly: Thracian Peltast displays as Peltast?s Thrâx and Temple as Ne?s.

[historic_bruno]

Erutuon, on 07 December 2011 - 02:29 PM, said:

I don't know how to create a ticket or describe the issue with full technical precision

Sounds like you've summarized it well You just need to register on Trac to create a ticket.

[Ykkrosh]

Thanks for the description . I filed a ticket and will try to look into it soonish (unless someone else wants to take over the font code ).

Erutuon, on 07 December 2011 - 02:29 PM, said:

If the solution chosen is multi-codepoint sequences, you might need to check if the combining acute renders well.

I don't know whether the font we're using supports that properly, so that'll be worth verifying. If it's ugly then I think it should be easy enough to edit the OpenType font to fix the glyph placement.

[Erutuon]

I just updated my game and the ā́ and ī́ display correctly, but the ḗ and ṓ do not. The ḗ and ṓ are the characters with dedicated codepoints. Apparently they need to be replaced by two-codepoint sequences: ḗ and ṓ. Whoever fixed ā́ and ī́, could you fix ḗ and ṓ in the same way?

Edited by Erutuon, 23 December 2011 - 08:21 PM.

[Ykkrosh]

Oops, I got too focused on the ā́ and forgot to check everything else . Presumably the font just doesn't include glyphs for the ḗ/ṓ codepoints. I suppose the simplest consistent solution would be to use the combining-acute in all these cases in the XML files, and I ought to set up the charset-checking script to detect these problems automatically.