15 replies to this topic

[FeXoR]

As far as I can see the length of the civ's wall entities (e.g. rome_siege_wall_ short/medium/long) seams to have lengths adding up to each other. As far as I can see it's going to be 12/24/36 units (3/6/9 in rmgen tiles) for short/medium/long wall entities (I use rome because I was told by Mythos_Ruler all other civs would get walls of the length as Rome already has). I thought the purpose of walls of differing length was to be able to build walls of any length without much overlapping. But since you can build the 'medium' wall out of 2 'short' walls and the 'long' wall out of 3 'short' walls or a 'medium' and a 'short' wall it somehow defeats that purpose I saw (could be totally wrong with that though). Using lengths with differing prime factors would do much better for that (like 12 = 2*2*3, 20 = 2*2*5 and 28 = 2*2*7). I don't know how the models are build but it would be easy to use repeated parts in the middle with a length of 8 and endings with a length of 2 for each side (so they add up to 2*2 + 8 = 12, 2*2 + 2*8 = 20 and 2*2 + 3*8 = 28). That way one could still build walls without overlapping of length 24 and 36 (2*12 and 3*12) but also of length 20 (1*20), 28 (1*28), 32 (12+20), 40 (2*20 or 12+28), 44 (2*12+20) and so on. So though the shortest wall is of length 12 composed walls of length greater or equal to 20 can be build without overlapping of any length that is a multiple of 4 (the prime factors in all of the walls lengths: 2*2).

Not sure though what purpose walls of different length had in the first place so please tell me what was the purpose or what you think of it.

Thanks in advance.

Edited by FeXoR, 01 May 2012 - 10:29 AM.

[Pureon]

The wall towers are at least X in diameter and provide us with the X value that then decides what length the wall segments are. 2 wall towers placed beside each other are therefore 2X - If a small gap appears between the wall towers a small wall (2X in length) can fit between the 2 wall towers without protruding but still allow for a longer wall to be created up to 4X in length with the wall towers at either end. The medium wall is 4X in length and the long wall and gate are 6X in length.

If you want to try your system, there are over 40 models that you will need to remodel to match your dimensions

[FeXoR]

Pureon, on 01 May 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

The wall towers are at least X in diameter and provide us with the X value that then decides what length the wall segments are. 2 wall towers placed beside each other are therefore 2X - If a small gap appears between the wall towers a small wall (2X in length) can fit between the 2 wall towers without protruding but still allow for a longer wall to be created up to 4X in length with the wall towers at either end. The medium wall is 4X in length and the long wall and gate are 6X in length.

If you want to try your system, there are over 40 models that you will need to remodel to match your dimensions

Thx for the reply
I thought it would be to much work to remodel that and with towers considered in between it is not useful at all

Good to know the general idea but what is X? 6 units (1.5 in rmgen tiles) and palisades_rock half the size or different for all 'wall styles'? Are they planned to be of the same width for all civs in the end like Mythos_Ruler said (if I recall correctly)? This would be really useful for generating wall styles generic for rmgen rather than adjusting them by hand... which is terribly annoying.

Not all entities seam to be adjusted to that system though (especially gates): Carthaginian and Celtic gates are not as wide as their long walls for example.

Not that important (perhaps more a style issue) is that some gates still have towers at their sides that cannot shoot or be garrisoned AFAIK (Iberian and Roman siege).

Have a nice day

Edited by FeXoR, 01 May 2012 - 01:24 PM.

[Pureon]

FeXoR, on 01 May 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

Good to know the general idea but what is X? 6 units (1.5 in rmgen tiles) and palisades_rock half the size or different for all 'wall styles'? Are they planned to be of the same width for all civs in the end like Mythos_Ruler said (if I recall correctly)? This would be really useful for generating wall styles generic for rmgen rather than adjusting them by hand... which is terribly annoying.

X lengths are decided within our 3D programs (Imperial measurements) and not rmgen tiles within 0.A.D. It's mostly visual.

Most civ stone walls now have the same standard X length, apart from Carthaginian walls and Palisade walls that have their own lengths for gameplay reasons. Roman Siege walls are not normal stone walls but do follow the standard X value.

FeXoR, on 01 May 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

Not all entities seam to be adjusted to that system though (especially gates): Carthaginian and Celtic gates are not as wide as their long walls for example.

I haven't finished those yet - I've instead been working on features that will make it into Alpha 10 like techs. Functioning gates might be released with Alpha 11 or 12

[FeXoR]

Pureon, on 01 May 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

X lengths are decided within our 3D programs (Imperial measurements) and not rmgen tiles within 0.A.D. It's mostly visual.

I know, but there has to be a basic length unit. AFAIK 4 units in the 3D engine is one tile (the size of a texture mainly) in RMGEN. That approximately matches with 'Footprint' and 'Obstruction' within the entity XML files as well.

Pureon, on 01 May 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

Most civ stone walls now have the same standard X length, apart from Carthaginian walls and Palisade walls that have their own lengths for gameplay reasons. Roman Siege walls are not normal stone walls but do follow the standard X value.

I haven't finished those yet - I've instead been working on features that will make it into Alpha 10 like techs. Functioning gates might be released with Alpha 11 or 12

Thx! I didn't meant the functionality but the width of gates though perhaps it's just best to avoid them at all, even for style reasons ATM.

Edited by FeXoR, 01 May 2012 - 02:04 PM.

[Pureon]

FeXoR, on 01 May 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

I know, but there has to be a basic length unit. AFAIK 4 units in the 3D engine is one tile (the size of a texture mainly) in RMGEN.

The 'standard' X wall length that almost all walls use is 6 Blender units. When using Imperial measurements with a Blender unit scale of 0.0254 this makes the X length 6 inches (and therefore 6X is 1 Yard or 36 inches). Using Metric measurements with a scale of 1.0 the X length is 6 metres.



The box above is the standard X length and the Dimensions are shown as Blender units

FeXoR, on 01 May 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

As far as I can see it's going to be 12/24/36 units (3/6/9 in rmgen tiles) for short/medium/long wall entities

If this is true, it makes me happy

Carthaginian Walls are 0.2 longer than the standard X length and therefore 1X is 7.2 units

I can't remember what I used for Palisades

[FeXoR]

Pureon, on 01 May 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

The 'standard' X wall length that almost all walls use is 6 Blender units. When using Imperial measurements with a Blender unit scale of 0.0254 this makes the X length 6 inches (and therefore 6X is 1 Yard or 36 inches). Using Metric measurements with a scale of 1.0 the X length is 6 metres.



The box above is the standard X length and the Dimensions are shown as Blender units



If this is true, it makes me happy

Carthaginian Walls are 0.2 longer than the standard X length and therefore 1X is 7.2 units

I can't remember what I used for Palisades

Thx. I adjusted it by hand (and eye ofc ) and since I think changes will most likely be made to fit the standard I will have no problems.

Are the Carthaginians walls planned to be changed until the next alpha?

[Pureon]

FeXoR, on 01 May 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

Are the Carthaginians walls planned to be changed until the next alpha?

All walls will remain as they are now for Alpha 10. The only items that might change are obstruction widths and/or the 2 remaining gates that need remodeling to follow the correct long segment size. The Carthaginian walls will always be longer, it's a unique feature for the civ.

[FeXoR]

Pureon, on 01 May 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

All walls will remain as they are now for Alpha 10. The only items that might change are obstruction widths and/or the 2 remaining gates that need remodeling to follow the correct long segment size. The Carthaginian walls will always be longer, it's a unique feature for the civ.

Ok, thx

[FeXoR]

Just wanted to say that the Iberian gate is slightly to shot as well. With towers in between with the given width of X = 6 using the concept explained above it fits but not to another wall. In addition with a tower next to it is looks not that great since both are rounded. Not an important matter but I just wanted tell.

[Mythos_Ruler]

I think it fits perfectly with the towers next to it and looks unique. Oh well.

[FeXoR]

Mythos_Ruler, on 02 May 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

I think it fits perfectly with the towers next to it and looks unique. Oh well.

It's a matter of taste of cause and it's surely unique. In general I like the variety of the walls styles. The gate ending with towers fit better to a wall directly IMO.


Never mind. With the information I got here I made most things generic in wall_builder for rmgen so I'm happy

[FeXoR]

The naming convention that is used for civ building entities ('structures/' + civ + '_' + type with type in [wall_short, wall_medium, wall_long, wall_gate, wall_tower, outpost, fortress]) could be used for palisade entities as well like 'structures/palisades_wall_short', 'structures/palisades_wall_medium', 'structures/palisades_wall_long', 'structures/palisades_wall_gate', 'structures/palisades_wall_tower', 'structures/palisades_outpost', 'structures/palisades_fortress'. This would be nice to have.

[Pureon]

Palisades were originally just a side project I was working on for my own personal enjoyment and were not intended for their current usage, hence the weird naming.

[Almin]

Pureon, on 03 May 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Palisades were originally just a side project I was working on for my own personal enjoyment and were not intended for their current usage, hence the weird naming.

Are you kidding?

[feneur]

Almin, on 04 May 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Are you kidding?

Sometimes grammar is relevant "Were originally" and "were not intended" Now palisades are included and will continue to be so.