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Third Age Gothmog


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#1 Black Op

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 11:44 PM

From this TORN Article, it seems like Gothmog is going to be an Orc in the ROTK movie coming out soon.

Which brings up the ages old question. Is Gothmog, the Lieutenant of Morgul, a Orc or a Man? And while we are here, what will Jackson do to his version of Gothmog? Will he become yet another "Darth Maul" slain by Aragon?

I say he's an Orc but then again, the Lieutenant of Barad-Dûr was a Man.
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#2 av_nefardec

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 01:23 AM

Ahh a classic puzzler! :LOL:

The way I see it:

Gothmog can be:

Uruk (special breed of black orc which Sauron alone mutated)
Olog (battle trolls from the Morannon also)
Black Numenorean from Umbar - very likely, TLA may do him this way
Nazgûl - perhaps a lieutenant of Minas Morgul since The Lord of the Nazgûl was the King of Morgul?

Now - Why would Ologs and Nazgûl take orders from an Uruk or another Olog for that matter? To me it's much more plausible that the Gothmog who took power after the fall of the Lord of the Nazgûl was a being of higher and more fearsome status, such as a black numenorean or a nazgûl. In fact the black numenorean theory has literary support- in the second age, two of Sauron's most influential cohorts are two black numenoreans, Herumor and Fuinor, who both became Sauron's puppets in the South.
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#3 Black Op

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 01:33 AM

I'm sure Gothmog wasen't a Nazgûl. The Wraith 2nd only to the Lord of the Nazgûl was named as Khamûl, and happened to be the only Nazgûl named by Tolkien himself.

Now that it comes to it, I think Gothmog is a Black Numenorean myself. Which brings me to yet another question. Will Black Numenoreans be in TLA as a civ.?
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#4 av_nefardec

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 01:41 AM

Well the Haradrim independent civ in TLA represents both Umbar and Haradrim. Since the single biggest enclave of Black Numenoreans was at Umbar, they will be represented by this independent civ.

Also Herumor is a second age leader available to the FoD.
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#5 Black Op

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 02:02 AM

Okay then. Now I wonder, how much Numenorean influences will show up in the Haradrim in TLA. Will it be obvious or will it be settle?
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#6 av_nefardec

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 03:23 AM

Basically the lower buildings, like markets, barracks and watch towers will be "Haradric", whereas upper buildings, like Ports, Guard Towers, and Great Halls will be more of Numenorean design (with haradric influence)

Remember though that the indpendents have fewer buildings so this has to be done carefully.
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#7 Murchad

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 03:51 AM

I think he was a Black Numenorean
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#8 ElfTheHunter

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 03:58 AM

I remember disscussing this with Adam. I remember we decided with him being either a Olog (elite higher skilled) or a Black Numenorean. At the time I was suspecious of a Black Numenorean (I knew little about them, or any of the evil sides of things for the matter) but now I see it's the most fitting description. I do think he is not a Wraith, Khamul would have been chosen if that was the case (as was pointed out). An Uruk is possible, but unlikely. An Olog is more probable because they could be fearsome enough to control the masses, but to control the catapults/ringwraiths and other special units I doubt they'd be efficient. A Black Numenrean is where I stand.
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#9 Sukkit

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 08:36 AM

I doubt the Olog-hai would have the required intelligence to command an army, even if they were not completely stupid like common trolls. My guess is, too, that he was a Black Númenórean (who by the way took his name from the most powerful Balrog :LOL:)
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#10 Enarwaen

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 11:53 AM

Now - Why would Ologs and Nazgûl take orders from an Uruk or another Olog for that matter? To me it's much more plausible that the Gothmog who took power after the fall of the Lord of the Nazgûl was a being of higher and more fearsome status, such as a black numenorean or a nazgûl. In fact the black numenorean theory has literary support- in the second age, two of Sauron's most influential cohorts are two black numenoreans, Herumor and Fuinor, who both became Sauron's puppets in the South.


ah yes ... the classic debate - we already had this in the old boards :LOL:

like adam already pointed out: Uruks and Ologs certainly dont fit. the only possible options left are either a Nazgûl or a Black Númenorean.

I'd like to shift your attention to another character in Sauron's camp: The Mouth of Sauron. He is of (Black) Númenorean origin and seems to have been in Sauron's service since the FIRST rebuilding of Barad-dûr (after the drowning of Númenor in SA 3319), he seems to victim of "short-term-memory-loss" since he has forgotten his name ... cf. the following quote:

At its head there rode a tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse, if horse it was; for it was huge and hideous, and its face was a frightful mask, more like a skull than a living head, and in the sockets of its eyes and in its nostrils there burned a flame. The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man. The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: 'I am the Mouth of Sauron.' But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenóreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord's favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc.


the question remains - how can any mortal live almost 3000 years ? Could Sauron's skill have prolonged his life ? Probably not, since he could NOT alter the Fate of Men, that was granted by Eru! Or was he given a Ring of Power - maybe one of the Dwarven Rings, that Sauron had left ? or maybe one of the Lesser Rings ? We don't know and will never find out. Maybe he was one of the "infamous" Black Númenoreans who gained power over the Southrons during the end of the Second Age, aptly named Herumor and Fuinor ?

but this brings us back to the Gothmog-topic.
Option A: Gothmog = Nazgûl - Lieutenant of Morgul (meaning second-in-command of Minas Morgul) is possible - since Nazgûl #2 (Khamul) is the Lieutenant of Dol Guldur.
Option B: Gothmog = Black Númenorean: also possible since the Nazgûl were used in the Battle of Pelennor on their Fell Beasts and the army from Minas Morgul consisted also of Men (which race is unknown ... but they had cavalry - and i doubt that it was Orcs riding horses ;) )

All that host was clad in sable, dark as the night. Against the wan walls and the luminous pavement of the road Frodo could see them, small black figures in rank upon rank, marching swiftly and silently, passing outwards in an endless stream. Before them went a great cavalry of horsemen moving like ordered shadows, and at their head was one greater than all the rest: a Rider, all black, save that on his hooded head he had a helm like a crown that flickered with a perilous light.


So it could be that Gothmog was maybe the Leader of the Cavalry of Morgul and so highly trusted by the Witch-King.

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#11 Black Op

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 08:56 PM

He is of (Black) Númenorean origin and seems to have been in Sauron's service since the FIRST rebuilding of Barad-dûr (after the drowning of Númenor in SA 3319),.....

I thought Barad-Dur wasen't destroyed until the War of The Last Alliance.

So it could be that Gothmog was maybe the Leader of the Cavalry of Morgul and so highly trusted by the Witch-King.


Didn't the Witch-King lead the calvary himself?
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#12 av_nefardec

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Posted 09 October 2003 - 03:43 AM

Enarwaen - one of my favorite quotes - the one about the horsemen.

@Black Op, well the WK led the entire host, but Enarwaen is saying "Gothmog" could have just led the cavalry division.
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#13 ElfTheHunter

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Posted 09 October 2003 - 03:52 AM

What if the Mouth of Sauron is Gothmog... he just remembered his name? :LOL: j/k

I do think Sauron could possibly prolong the life of the man, didn't the other Vala prolong the life of the Numenoreans? Wearing one of the rings is also a possibility.

Anyway, I much rather have him be a BNumenorean for the game, since then there would be a Leader which would be fitting to lead their calvary (the non warg calvary)
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The Hunter’s servants held the dark green gem,
They worshiped it as the Hunter’s Eye,
A Helm of silver-white was forged by them,
And a prophecy that murderers would one day die,
Upon the brow of Hunter’s Helm was set the Eye,
Wars and battles were fought by elves and men,
And the Eye was deemed too powerful for the open sky,
Tombs were built within the Deep, the Eye was carried to one of ten,
And there, buried for many years it shall remain,
Until the day its power, the Hunter’s Son shall gain.

#14 Black Op

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Posted 09 October 2003 - 04:16 AM

@Black Op, well the WK led the entire host, but Enarwaen is saying "Gothmog" could have just led the cavalry division.

Okay, I know what he means then.
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#15 Sukkit

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Posted 09 October 2003 - 11:00 AM

I do think Sauron could possibly prolong the life of the man, didn't the other Vala prolong the life of the Numenoreans?

No, Sauron couldn't do that. The Valar couldn't do it for the Númenóreans, it had to be Eru himself (itself? :LOL:); much less could one of the Maiar do it, even if he was probably the most powerful of all (with permission of Melian and Olórin/Gandalf)

I don't think he was immortal either. I doubt the power rings had that power. Dwarves don't experience any life extension when they wear them, although that might very well be because of their nature. But see Gollum - he was practically destroyed by the ring, and he only had it for much less than an age ;). Even Bilbo was already starting to suffer its effects.
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#16 Enarwaen

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Posted 09 October 2003 - 12:24 PM

@Sukkit

you are totally right - none of the Ainur (including Manwe, Morgoth ...) could alter the Fate of Men, because everything on Arda (well almost ... cf. Creation of the Dwarves :LOL: ) came from Eru Illúvatar himself. And no Vala or Maia had the power to change that (also cf. Home Vol 10: Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth).

This leaves two distinct possibilites:

1) Tolkien made an "error" when he wrote (or chose some unlucky words *ahem* for us to chew on - when he meant the whole phrase in another way)

And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again


Just as a reminder: Sauron started building his Barad-dûr around SA 1000 and completed it around SA 1600. He abandoned Mordor after the "friendly invitation" from Ar-Pharazôn to Númenor in SA 3262. After his return in SA 3319 he rebuilt his strength (not necessarily the tower itself) in Mordor - so the above phrase could be taken in a literal way - meaning Sauron's again increasing power.

2) OR Tolkien explicitly means the actual rebuilding of Barad-dûr in TA 2951 - this would imply that there are STILL Black Númenoreans lurking under some rocks down in Harad - which to me is rather unlikely - since the Black Númenoreans were almost wiped out when Gondor took Umbar in TA 933. The few survivors most likely mingled most likely w/ local Haradric People and so ...

after the Fall of Sauron, their race swiftly dwindled or became merged with the Men of Middle-earth

- Annals of the Kings and Rulers, Appendix A in: The Return of the King

... one could assume that the Black Númenorans bred themselves out of their "Númenorean DNA" ;) and so it would be highly unlikely that Sauron found one in the later centuries of the Third Age. Also the fact that Barad-dûr was rebuilt in TA 2951 and the public appearance of the Mouth of Sauron took place in TA 3019 would leave too little time to become as "wretched" as the MoS appeared to be further disqualifies that possibility

in conclusion one could say that the MoS was recruited somewhere during the last century of the Second Age - and most likely has been given a Ring of Power that prolonged his life in an unnatural way

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#17 Black Op

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Posted 09 October 2003 - 08:43 PM

Well, to have the position that the MoS has, he must have been in the service of Sauron for some time, since the Downfall of Numeror most likely. However, if MoS had a Ring of Power, how could he avoid being turned into a Wraith? And Gothmog must be in the same situation as MoS, they being the Lts. of some the 2 most important places in Mordor. In fact, could the 2 be Herumor and Fuinor themselves, they just got new names?
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#18 Frumpus

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Posted 10 October 2003 - 11:55 PM

I thought the reason Numenoreans (BTW, how do you all get the accents over the letters??) were so long-lived was:

A. Elros "used-to-be" an elf, and so his heirs had around 450-500 years of life.
B. Some Numenoreans spent their time finding ways to reach immortality, and must have found ways at least of prolonging it.
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#19 av_nefardec

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Posted 11 October 2003 - 04:55 PM

@Frumpus - Alt + Four digit number

for example

Alt + 0250 = ú

Alt + 0251 = û

Alt + 0235 = ë
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#20 Valahiru

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Posted 14 November 2003 - 10:00 PM

I am like 99% sure Gothmog was a Black Numenorean, and am just is sure about The Mouth Being of Black Numenorean blood also. I can't remember where I read this but I found another name for Gothmog(Numenorean) that was along the lines of Uruzalir or something like that.
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