50 replies to this topic

[av_nefardec]

Hmm that's interesting - I've never heard such a thing.

[Black Op]

I'll have to check that out with Google. Hope it's not just a made up name.

[av_nefardec]

The encyclopedia of Arda defines Gothmog as follows:

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Lieutenant to the Lord of the Nazgûl at the Battle of the Pelennor - he took command of the forces of Minas Morgul after the loss of his lord.

Now it is true that he was the lieutenant of morgul, and that the forces of minas morgul were the forces predominantly involved in the Battle of the Pelennor fields. So does this imply that Gothmog was another of the Nazgûl?


I also found this in my research:

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Gothmog was also the name of the lieutenant of Minas Morgul at the time of the WotR, and the leader of Sauron's forces in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, after the death of the Witch-king. Gothmog may have been an Orc, or perhaps a Man (a BlackNumenorean??). In Robert Fosters Complete Guide to Middle-earth it is speculated that Gothmog was one of the Black Riders (though this would not be the case if Gothmog himself had been killed on the Pelennor).

From http://www.thetolkie...iki.cgi?Gothmog

Does anyone here have Robert Foster's Complete Guide to Middle-earth?

[SizedIsildur2]

Is Gothmog 3rd age that Orc comander? No?

[Black Knight]

I believe my school has got a copy of The Complete guide to ME but I can't check it out until after Christmas break.

[Black Op]

@SizedIsildur: If you mean in Jackson's vision of LOTR, then yes. However, Tolkien himself doesn't mention the race that Gothmog belolongs so in the books, he could be a Nazgul or a Black Numenorean like the Mouth of Sauron is, or any other race that was under Sauron's dominion.

[UnsungHero]

it's remarked somewhere (or so I heard) that the Mouth of Sauron was Black Numenorean and prolonged his life by sorcery (and thus, like Gollum, forgot his own name) so it's plausible that mog could also have done so

[av_nefardec]

I'm more and more believing that Gothmog was a Nazgûl. I don't really have any facts to back that up, but it seems like Nazgûl always take leadership positions They were once kings after all. The black-númenorean sorcerer (like MoS) is a tempting idea too though.

I mean we could make him a black númenorean-turned-wraith

[SizedIsildur2]

Black Op, on Dec 30 2003, 09:43 PM, said:

@SizedIsildur: If you mean in Jackson's vision of LOTR, then yes. However, Tolkien himself doesn't mention the race that Gothmog belolongs so in the books, he could be a Nazgul or a Black Numenorean like the Mouth of Sauron is, or any other race that was under Sauron's dominion.

Ah ha. So Gothmog is that Orc commander with one eye and who took one step away from a huge rock comming his way? That guy? Whoa...
Yet the Wraith of him sounds much cooler in that case.

[EKen132]

Oh I didn't know that was supposed to be him. You'd think they'd pick a fiercer looking orc for the second in command of the huge army who happens to be named after Morgoth's greatest general. BTW, where does it mention him in the book?

[av_nefardec]

No that's not Gothmog.

Gothmog was almost for sure either a Black Númenorean or a Nazgûl. He would have been more like the Mouth of Sauron.

Orcs are incapable of leading massive numbers of guys. Look what happened at Cirith Ungol and the Uruk party going to Isengard. Disasters.

All of Sauron's best leaders were Black Númenoreans or Nazgûl. Look at the Mouth of Sauron, Khamul the ringwraith, Herumor and Fuinir in the second age, the Witch King in both Minas Morgul and in Angmar. There's no way men of the east and the south would have heeded an orc anyways. They would have been commanded by fear, and that comes from a black númenorean sorcerer like the mouth of Sauron or a Nazgûl.

Look even at the first age, the leaders are never orcs, but Dragons, Balrogs, Sauron, etc.

The simple fact is orcs were created to be thralls, war machines, capable only of killing for their dark lord. Sure, the orcs had some internal leadership, but those would have only been low-level command positions. Surely not the second-in-command of the entire army of Minas Morgul, estimated at more than 25,000!

The guy you're talking about in the movie was simply an addition made by Peter Jackson's team into the story.

[Black Op]

I think Gothmog was a Black Númenórean like MoS, both had the ranks of Lieutenants of their respective places (Minas Morgul and Barad-dûr), and also obviously forgotten both their names (unfortunate side effect for mortals who live too long, plus, Gothmog dosen't sound too Númenórean to me).

BTW: Good points Adam about the inability of Orcs able to command entire armies.

[av_nefardec]

do Herumor and Fuinir sound Black Númenorean to you? Khamul is also a black Númenorean name.

Herumor and Fuinir were black númenoreans with names of Sindarin origin like Gothmog.

Where did it mention that Gothmog forgot his name?

[av_nefardec]

What do you guys make of this?

In HoME VIII: The War of the Ring, there is a note on the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, pg 369 that says:

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Among the horsemen of Gondor (RK p. 121) appears Húrin the Tall, 'Warden of the City' changed at once to 'Warden of the Keys'.  In an immediately rejected version of the passage in which the newhosts streaming in from Osgiliath are described, it was said of the Black Captain: 'He was gone, and the Nazgûl in fear had fled back to Mordor bearing ill tidings'; but this was lost in the rewriting of the passage, where appear both Gothmog lieutenant of Morgul, the Variags of Khand, and the black 'half trolls' of Far Harad.

To me it seems like Tolkien definitely distinguished between the Nazgûl and Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul.

[Frumpus]

av_nefardec said:

"I mean we could make him a black númenorean-turned-wraith"

Sounds logical to me! I mean, a mortal living THAT long would - by definition - be nothing but a wraith. Even if he WAS originally a Black Numenorean sorcerer... adding a Ring of Power to the mix would ... turn him INTO a nazgul, no?
how can any mortal live almost 3000 years ? Could Sauron's skill have prolonged his life?

...

Gollum lived 400+ years more than the "average" hobbit lifespan - due to the ring. Sure, he was wretched, but he was also "only" a hobbit - and a weak-minded hobbit at that (probably). In the hands of a powerful leader like Aragorn or Boromir - or a Black Numenorean sorcerer - I can believe Sauron's power via a Ring is enough to keep someone "alive" for that long.


**Hmm, next time I watch RotK I'll have to to if someone is billed as "Gothmog" in the credits.

[av_nefardec]

I'm really not sure, because in all seriousness either a Nazgûl or a Mouth-of-Sauron like entity seems appropriate. I mean both the Mouth of Sauron and Gothmog were lieutenants

The reason I posted that quote is because it makes it seem like Tolkien meant for the Nazgûl to flee to Mordor to tell Sauron of the fall of the Witch King, with Gothmog becoming the captain of the armies of Morgul, therefore rendering Gothmog not a Nazgûl. So I wasn't sure if I was interpreting this quote right and wanted to get your opinions.

[Enarwaen]

@Adam

i share your impression about the Nazgûl leaving the scene (and after some research at the tolkien.slimy.com site) i'm quite sure that Gothmog being also a Nazgûl can be ruled out.

the term Lieutenant i think is misleading into thinking too much in military terms. i always thought of it more of being the "second-in-command" of the given place or (in Khamûl's case - being sort of the First Emissary and Sauron's "Steward" in Minas Morgul)

OTOH after researching some more about the Rings that Sauron posessed during the War of the Ring (The Nine of Men and Three of the Dwarven Rings that remained) i'm again unsure if the Mouth of Sauron and Gothmog posessed some Dwarven Rings.

Sauron couldn't have given them one of the Nine - because he would have instantly lost control of the corresponding Nazgûl and in time created a new one (mind the passing of time between SA 1690 - when Sauron took Ost-in-Edhil and the emergence of the first Nazgûl in SA 2250 (if memory serves me correctly))

another question remains - if (and how) there was a difference between the Nine Rings of Men and the Seven Rings of Dwarves. Or was Sauron (after he reclaimed them in Ost-in-Edhil) to specificly able to change the abilities of the Rings in order to enslave mortal Men and Dwarves and turn them into Wraiths. Only that the enslaving and wraith-turning didn't work out with the Dwarves - it just kindled their hearts with a lust for power and riches.
can we assume that the now "cursed" Rings would work the same way - giving long live, make you invisible (i.e. transfer you into the wraith-world) until you turn into a wraith under Sauron's will ? so basically if a human would get his hands on a "Dwarven" Ring of Power - would he also in time become a wraith? i do think so.

but what about the "Lesser Rings" ? could the Mouth of Sauron and Gothmog have obtained one of those ?

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'In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles – yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals. But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous.
'A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he_ fades:_ he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later – later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last – sooner or later the dark power will devour him.'

as i've stated in a previous post - it is rather unlikely to find a pureblooded Black Númenórean in the late Third Age - so Gothmog is either way older than we think or its really just "some" veteran "human" leader - worthy of the Witch-kings trust to be his second-in-command in Minas Morgul.

suilad
-Bernd

[Sukkit]

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another question remains - if (and how) there was a difference between the Nine Rings of Men and the Seven Rings of Dwarves. Or was Sauron (after he reclaimed them in Ost-in-Edhil) to specificly able to change the abilities of the Rings in order to enslave mortal Men and Dwarves and turn them into Wraiths. Only that the enslaving and wraith-turning didn't work out with the Dwarves - it just kindled their hearts with a lust for power and riches.

Well, the rings (except the Three, and the One, of course) had probably the same or similar powers, since they weren't made thinking of whom Sauron was going to give them. Sauron took the 17 minor rings and gave them to Men and Dwarven lords, but that's all. I think

[av_nefardec]

Yeah interesting idea with the Dwarven rings/Human rings. Makes sense that they'd be similar in function.

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veteran "human" leader - worthy of the Witch-kings trust to be his second-in-command in Minas Morgul.

Who knows - Gothmog could have been the Witch King's general when he was actually a king of men before he became a wraith. Gothmog may not have received a ring, but he'd still be loyal to the WK.

[Enarwaen]

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Sauron took the 17 minor rings and gave them to Men and Dwarven lords, but that's all. I think

thats another interesting part of the story - how could Sauron persuade/trick 9 Mortals and 7 (or maybe make that 6 - there are hints in the texts that Durin III might have gotten his ring directly from Celebrimbor) Dwarves into accepting the Rings from him (with all the War he just brought over Eriador?)
My guess he just whipped out his old Annatar-guise and charmed them

(off topic - this might make a great scenario/campaign)

and i agree w/ Sukkits idea - the Rings of the Dwarves and Humans should basically be the same. They only had different effects on their bearers.

back@topic

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Who knows - Gothmog could have been the Witch King's general when he was actually a king of men before he became a wraith. Gothmog may not have received a ring, but he'd still be loyal to the WK.

possible - if he really was serving under the WK when he still was mortal - that would make him about 4000+ years old (remember Sauron gained the Seven and Nine Rings in SA 1690 - but the Úlairi didn't first appear before SA 2250). this again moves my to the conclusion that Gothmog must have been a bearer of a Lesser Ring (which prolonged his life - but didnt turn him into a wraith) - highly speculative stuff!

suilad
-Bernd