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Origin of Orcs


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#1 UnsungHero

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 03:01 PM

today I felt like reading some of the History of Middle-earth series b/c they've been in my attic collecting dust. so I got out number 4, The Shaping of Middle-Earth, and I started reading the Quenta (which is, it says, the history of the Gnomes) however midway through it got off track about the gnomes and starts talking about Morgoth gathering his strength. I think what you are about to read may shock you

In such forests did Orome sometimes hunt, but save Orome and Yavanna the Valar went not out of Valinor, while in the North Morgoth built his strength, and gathered his       broods about him, whom the Gnomes knew after as Balrogs with whips of flame.  The hordes of Orcs he made of stone, but their hearts were made of hatred.

so what's it saying? perhaps the Orcs were not in fact corrupted Elves and were, in fact, made of stone? this question can dramatically alter the way we think of Orcs, as they would be instead of corrupted Elves more like corrupted Dwarves perhaps? this would also quash theories on Orcish immortality, for we all know Dwarves are mortal. it raises many such questions but one I think is brought to light here more than ever. is this passage hinting that Eru gave to Melko the power to make life? this again would dramatically alter our views on the throngs of minions Melko seemed to gather from nowhere. perhaps now we can answer the unanswerable question. perhaps now we know the origin of the Orcs...

lemme know what you all think, and it's not to say that later Orcs were not corrupted Elves, just the originals...

--UnsungHero
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#2 Black Op

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Posted 31 December 2003 - 07:13 PM

Well, you may have stumbled upon an older version of the "Orc Creation Story". Tolkien may well have changed his mind after he wrote that, and could have been reflected in the Silmarillon.
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#3 Calembel

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 09:55 PM

I thought Morgoth couldn't give life to anything on his own. Only Illuvatar could. Otherwise they would only move when he wanted them to and stuff.
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#4 UnsungHero

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Posted 01 January 2004 - 10:29 PM

true that's how it was with Aule at least (dwarves) but you never know with that Melkor...Iluvatar may have given him that power, though I will go with black op on this one that it's probably an older version of the story and not credible
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#5 Curufinwe

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Posted 02 January 2004 - 01:34 PM

indeed ... but I do not think Eru gave Melkor any such power ... at least there is no such hint in the books ... yet, he may have "created" creatures such as Dwarves (by Aule) or Ents (Yavanna) ... which are not "real" children of Illuvatar ...
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#6 Calembel

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 02:00 AM

I'm almost certain the Silmarillion specifically says that Morgoth couldn't make new life, though he wanted to very much.

I may be wrong, but the Dwarves are like adopted children, and the Ents were part of the Song. The dwarves have "life" because Eru gae it to them. If Melkor created the Orcs, I can't imagine Eru giving them "life".

If the orcs didn't have "life" the would stop moving and stand idle when Morgoth's mind was away from them, and move only when he wanted them to. But orcs seem able to think independently, and they don't get along with each other. I can't think of any reason Morgoth would make them do that.
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#7 Curufinwe

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 11:56 AM

:)

That is why the best explanation is that they are corrupted elves ... Melkor hated Elves beyond any other creature and he emprisoned some and tortured them. In the Silmarillion, it is said that this is probably his worst fellony ...
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#8 Night Hawk

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 12:40 PM

Morgoth had only the power to destroy and ruin thinks that where already made, so he could not have made the orcs
the silmarilion states that it where captured elves
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#9 Sukkit

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 12:52 PM

indeed ... but I do not think Eru gave Melkor any such power ... at least there is no such hint in the books ... yet, he may have "created" creatures such as Dwarves (by Aule) or Ents (Yavanna) ... which are not "real" children of Illuvatar ...

Yavanna didn't create Ents. She talked to Manwë about her concerns on the Children of Ilúvatar freely disposing of trees, and about how she wished they could defend themselves. Manwë then spoke to Eru, and voilá! Eru created Ents.
Same for Aulë. He created puppets without true life of their own, and only Eru could truly animate them.
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#10 Curufinwe

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Posted 03 January 2004 - 03:35 PM

indeed yes Sukkit ... what I meant was that Yavanna was at the origin of the Ents ... they are her counterpart to Dwarves for Aule.
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#11 biggzh

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Posted 07 February 2004 - 10:59 PM

Well, that must be where the orc digging/breeding thing comes from in the FOTR and the TT in the movies... :)
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#12 Gilluin

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Posted 20 April 2004 - 01:23 PM

There are quotes about Orc breeding pits from the HoME series, but I don't think they were literal birthing pits, more like huge brothels were Orcs would do their business and then carry on.

I think that Morgoth used much of his magic's to corrupt Elves (may be only a very few to start and probably not that many over all as it would take considerable power to do it) and in that corruption turned all the beauty that was held by the other Vala into the evil and hatred that was his. So Orcs became the antithesis in physical form to the Valar and their original plans.
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#13 rohirwine

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Posted 20 April 2004 - 01:33 PM

Well, that must be where the orc digging/breeding thing comes from in the FOTR and the TT in the movies...  :wacko:

Your're referring to the Uruk-Hai. Actually there is no hint in the films about how normal, regular, tiny orcs come to life... ...no my preciousss. :P

*Entering :D mode*
And. most of all, we're trying to buld TLA around Tolkien works, not around the films (there are already other LotR games out there ready to be played with), hence the films are not the source from wich we take inspiration to design the game.
*Quitting :D mode*

So do we have any nasssty hint on how the evil orcssses are born, have we? gollum
Assssk Gilluin and Enarwaen we musssst, yeeessss....
:D
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#14 Black Op

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Posted 20 April 2004 - 06:59 PM

Yes, we must make clear Orcs reproduce in the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar. :wacko:
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#15 Halmirion

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Posted 20 April 2004 - 11:44 PM

As terrible as the idea is :D , Orcs are indeed said to reproduce after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar.

And I remember some other topic where Orcish Immortality was discussed, and I volunteered to write an essay about that. Believe it or not, I'm actually writing it :D . I've already got almost 4 pages (double-spaced) typed up; not sure how much longer it'll be before it's finished, since I only work on it every now and again. But it will be finished eventually (I think :wacko: ).

Actually, I've got my own theory about how Morgoth made the orcs, which gets some treatment in the essay.
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#16 av_nefardec

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 12:12 AM

:wacko:

you can put it on the website when we open the literature section...

:D
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#17 Gilluin

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Posted 21 April 2004 - 01:10 AM

I think the immortality of Orcs is most likely, but in the nasty dangerous world they live in it is highly unlikely that they live even as long as the average human.

Sucks to be in that type of world I suppose :wacko:
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#18 Curufinwe

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Posted 13 October 2004 - 06:49 PM

(beer.gif

got the quote !! got it!
found it in Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed X:

This then, as it may appear, was my father's final view of the question: Orcs were bred from Men, [...]

There are a couple of pages about the origins of Orcs ... like:

they could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills, they died and were not immortal

A great text on Orcs indeed.
Does this close the debate? ;)
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#19 Ankhareon

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Posted 13 October 2004 - 07:38 PM

Why the discussion about Illuvatar giving Orcs free will? I thought it was clear that Melkor did not create Orcs, he ruined and mutilated Elves (or men)-creatures that already had free will.
As for Orc Origins I am quite sure they were bred from elves as Men had not yet awoken, nor been revealed to the Ainur and I doubt Melkor could have found something he didn't know existed, nor was concious
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#20 Curufinwe

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Posted 14 October 2004 - 09:02 AM

(beer.gif

Read Morgoth's Ring ... it is well explained why they came before the Awakening of Men. Tolkien planned that the Primeval Orcs may be corrupted Ainur (lesser Maiar in this case) and after his First Downfall, he relied on Men who were easier to corrupt and bred easily.
But it seems that the concept of corrupted elves was very much rejected by Tolkien eventually. Elves, however corrupted, could not breed something as horrid as Orcs.
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