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#1 av_nefardec

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Posted 13 February 2004 - 08:56 PM

I was looking through the hobbit and found this:

...Bilbo was sitting beside a warm fire in front of a large tent, and sat there too, gazing curiously at him, both the Elvenking and Bard.  A hobbit in elvish armour, partly wrapped in an old blanket, was something knew to them........He drew from a pocket in his old jacket (which he still wore over his mail), crumpled and much folded, Thorin's letter........The Elven king looked at Bilbo with a new wonder.  "Bilbo Baggins!" he said.  "You are more worthy to wear the armour of elf-princes than many that have looked more comely in it".






And on a side note did you know that Bilbo at the Battle of Five Armies, just like Pippin in the Battle of the Morannon says "The Eagles! The Eagles! The Eagles are coming!" and then blacks out?

Just a bit of curiosity.
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Adam [aka av_nefardec]

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#2 Mithrandil

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Posted 13 February 2004 - 09:39 PM

Yes, offcourse do elves were chain, but I read somewhere (I can't remember) that an elf wore plate leg and arm protectors. Just for showing it's not all mail :P
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Loonis Logghe [ aka Mithrandil ]

'Shouldn't we send him a message and call in his help?' Erestor asked. 'It seems that he even has control of the Ring.'
'No, I shouldn't say it that way,' Gandalf said. 'Rather say the Ring hasn't got control of him. He's his own master. But he can't change the ring, nor break the power it has on others.'


No, my name isn't wrong, it's just a combination of Mithrandir and Mithril: look and see: MITHRandI(L/R)

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#3 Black Op

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Posted 13 February 2004 - 09:43 PM

I just wished Tolkien knew enough about past warfare to make a book describing the arms, armor, tactics, ect. of each race in Middle-earth. :P But alas, we have to settle for scattered quotes.
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#4 av_nefardec

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Posted 13 February 2004 - 09:52 PM

but I read somewhere (I can't remember) that an elf wore plate leg and arm protectors


Yes, of course you'd have plates for greaves, pauldrons, etc - I was writing in specific regard to torso or chest armor. (criticism of the movie's handling of the elves' armor mainly)
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Adam [aka av_nefardec]

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#5 Sukkit

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Posted 14 February 2004 - 09:57 AM

Even if Elves used plate armor for the torso, it would be used by the Noldor, the Vanyar and perhaps the Sindar only. No way the Silvan Elves at Helm's Deep (sic) would wear plate armor. They would be more agile and fast units, and would rather fight in scattered positions, not in such close, disciplined and coordinated formations.
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#6 Mironir

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 06:38 PM

Tolkien used nearly always chainmail : Guard of Minas Tirith , Rohirrim ( in one of his letters he wrote that the Rohirrim are much the same as the Normandic Riders at Hastings), the Elves of the first age , Aragorn and Legolas wore chainmail at Edoras (Gimli already wore it),...
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#7 Mithrandil

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 06:42 PM

Yeah, chainmail it is, but I thought the elves of the prologue were cool anyways :P
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Loonis Logghe [ aka Mithrandil ]

'Shouldn't we send him a message and call in his help?' Erestor asked. 'It seems that he even has control of the Ring.'
'No, I shouldn't say it that way,' Gandalf said. 'Rather say the Ring hasn't got control of him. He's his own master. But he can't change the ring, nor break the power it has on others.'


No, my name isn't wrong, it's just a combination of Mithrandir and Mithril: look and see: MITHRandI(L/R)

"One can only discuss when he can find reason in the other's thoughts, and then still disagree. When one cannot, he argues" -Noilos

"One is intelligent when one wields the following things: critisism on everything, and keen logics in it's purest form" -Noilos

"Philosophy poses the question why, History answers it" -Noilos

#8 Curufinwe

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 06:52 PM

:P

Well, as far as I know, warriors from many different cultures with chainmail wore also some pieces of plate armour to protect their arms, torso or legs ... so perhaps, it may be possible for characters to wear shoulder protection, arms protections, etc... along with chain mail under ...

The thing is, all over Europe chainmail was usually used as a kind of robe ... from head (or neck) to knees ... or at least until upper legs .. never as a kind of "shirt"
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#9 Mithrandil

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 07:01 PM

Yes it was, only the rich could afford to wear chainmail to the knees, there would have been some like a shirt or so... :P
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Loonis Logghe [ aka Mithrandil ]

'Shouldn't we send him a message and call in his help?' Erestor asked. 'It seems that he even has control of the Ring.'
'No, I shouldn't say it that way,' Gandalf said. 'Rather say the Ring hasn't got control of him. He's his own master. But he can't change the ring, nor break the power it has on others.'


No, my name isn't wrong, it's just a combination of Mithrandir and Mithril: look and see: MITHRandI(L/R)

"One can only discuss when he can find reason in the other's thoughts, and then still disagree. When one cannot, he argues" -Noilos

"One is intelligent when one wields the following things: critisism on everything, and keen logics in it's purest form" -Noilos

"Philosophy poses the question why, History answers it" -Noilos

#10 Curufinwe

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 07:18 PM

:P

I look for that in my references ... but honestly, I have never seen that before ... well, all I have seen is a kind of bonnet of chainmail ... to cover the head ... but just pieces of plate armour here and there ... without chainmail. But not a "shirt" like chainmail ...
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David B. [ a.k.a Curufinwe ]
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#11 Curufinwe

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Posted 19 February 2004 - 07:24 PM

:P

found it !! found it !!!

Well, it is true, "shirt" chainmail existed ... but it only appeared in the middle of the 15th century ... and it was not really a "shirt" as such !
To economise chain, a sleeve-less chainmail "shirt" was made ... and then, little by little, sleeves could be added according to the Lord's wealth ... but it says in my book that often, ordinary warriors had short chainmail, sleeve-less ... and added plate armour (or bits of metal rather) where they needed ...
hope I have answered well, Mithrandil !! :P
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David B. [ a.k.a Curufinwe ]
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"They swore an oath which none shall break, and none should take, by the name even of Ilvatar, calling the Everlasting Dark upon them if they kept it not..."
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#12 Mithrandil

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Posted 20 February 2004 - 04:17 PM

Enough to satisfie(spelling?) me atleast :P
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Loonis Logghe [ aka Mithrandil ]

'Shouldn't we send him a message and call in his help?' Erestor asked. 'It seems that he even has control of the Ring.'
'No, I shouldn't say it that way,' Gandalf said. 'Rather say the Ring hasn't got control of him. He's his own master. But he can't change the ring, nor break the power it has on others.'


No, my name isn't wrong, it's just a combination of Mithrandir and Mithril: look and see: MITHRandI(L/R)

"One can only discuss when he can find reason in the other's thoughts, and then still disagree. When one cannot, he argues" -Noilos

"One is intelligent when one wields the following things: critisism on everything, and keen logics in it's purest form" -Noilos

"Philosophy poses the question why, History answers it" -Noilos

#13 Drashkurz

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 12:17 AM

Hang on! This thread has gone rather off-topic - the discussion was 'is Tolkien re-using material'? The reference to the mithril is similar to what Gandalf says to Frodo at the Field of Cormallen (ROTK) and the second bit of the thread-starter...is obvious. Bilbo @ Five Armies= Pippin @ Morannon.
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#14 Shinsengumi

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 11:30 PM

Well, in regards to the question about the types of armor that the elves wore, I don't see any place where it says that the elves could not have wore plate. Elves did not have access to chainmail for much of their history, for the Sindar only knew of its existance it after they met the Naugrim of Belegost during the second age of the Chaining of Melkor, and probably did not themselves use it until the third age of the Captivity, when Thingol "took thought for arms, which before his people had not needed" and had the dwarves craft arms and armor for him. Indeed it wasn't until then that elves first learned to make chainmail, for it was then that the Sindar first learned smithcraft under the tutelage of the dwarves.

As for the Noldor, naturally they did not make, let alone know of, chainmail until after their arrival in Middle-earth. And yet before then they had forged arms and armor around the time when Melkor walked among them to sew the seeds of dissent, such that Feanor is described at one point as being "fully armed". Thus the Noldor did forge some type of armor before they knew of chainmail, and while Tolkien does not say what kind it was, be it plate or otherwise, it leaves it open to possibility, though it's fairly clear that after chain was available to both Noldorin and Telerin elves, it became the preferred for both.

As for the Tawarwaith at Dagorlad. . . historically they were "light-armed", probably in the manner of the non-Doriathrim Teleri, who are described at Alqualonde as having only slender bows. While none of the Laiquendi participated at Dagorlad (as after the death of Denethor they never marched openly to war), it's more than likely that the Tawarwaith that did not pass across the Hithaeglir and who followed Amdir and Oropher came from the same martial tradition (or more specifically, the lack thereof), and thus they were "ill equipped with armour and weapons in comparison with the Eldar of the West" (UT) when they marched off to Dagorlad. Thus most likely they were for the most part armed with bows, and probably wore nothing heavier than leather armor.
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#15 Drashkurz

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 11:53 PM

Well, in regards to the question about the types of armor that the elves wore, I don't see any place where it says that the elves could not have wore plate.  Elves did not have access to chainmail for much of their history, for the Sindar only knew of its existance it after they met the Naugrim of Belegost during the second age of the Chaining of Melkor, and probably did not themselves use it until the third age of the Captivity, when Thingol "took thought for arms, which before his people had not needed" and had the dwarves craft arms and armor for him.  Indeed it wasn't until then that elves first learned to make chainmail, for it was then that the Sindar first learned smithcraft under the tutelage of the dwarves. 

As for the Noldor, naturally they did not make, let alone know of, chainmail until after their arrival in Middle-earth.  And yet before then they had forged arms and armor around the time when Melkor walked among them to sew the seeds of dissent, such that Feanor is described at one point as being "fully armed".  Thus the Noldor did forge some type of armor before they knew of chainmail, and while Tolkien does not say what kind it was, be it plate or otherwise, it leaves it open to possibility, though it's fairly clear that after chain was available to both Noldorin and Telerin elves, it became the preferred for both.

As for the Tawarwaith at Dagorlad. . . historically they were "light-armed", probably in the manner of the non-Doriathrim Teleri, who are described at Alqualonde as having only slender bows.  While none of the Laiquendi participated at Dagorlad (as after the death of Denethor they never marched openly to war), it's more than likely that the Tawarwaith that did not pass across the Hithaeglir and who followed Amdir and Oropher came from the same martial tradition (or more specifically, the lack thereof), and thus they were "ill equipped with armour and weapons in comparison with the Eldar of the West" (UT) when they marched off to Dagorlad.  Thus most likely they were for the most part armed with bows, and probably wore nothing heavier than leather armor.

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A very convincing argument. But not on-topic. :)

Which +culture were you LA for on Elendor, by the way?
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