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Are Dragons Maiar?


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#1 Black Op

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Posted 06 November 2004 - 10:43 PM

I was chatting with Yiuel about various things when the talk turned to dragons. I always assumed that they were just creatures created by Morgoth. However, it is odd that supposedly for an Enemy that could only destroy, somehow dragons have powers of speech and intelligence. And thus, good ole' Yiuel says they are just lesser Maiar. What say you on your thoughts about this?
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#2 Gilluin

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Posted 06 November 2004 - 11:35 PM

I suppose it is possible if not likely. It does make some sense that this may be the case, given that there are different types of Dragons which would lend well to the different types of Maiar. Veryinteresting proposal.
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#3 Caedus

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 03:39 PM

http://www.wildfireg...?showtopic=2173

I think we talked about that in the post above. And someone came up with the idea of dragons being spirits inprisoned in monstrous bodies created by Morgoth.
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Anco Peeters [ aka Caedus ]

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"Christopher was always much concerned with the consistency of the story and on one occasion ... interrupted: 'Last time, you said Bilbo's front door was blue, and you said Thorin had a golden tassel on his hood, but you've just said that Bilbo's front door was green, and the tassel on Thorin's hood was silver'; at which point Ronald exclaimed 'Damn the boy!' and strode across the room to make a note."

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#4 Curufinwe

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 07:30 PM

:)

I am very much convinced that Dragons are the Eagles counterparts ... so, I assume that Glaurung, although stated somewhere that He was "born" .. hence not a Maia, may have been a Maia-like.
By "born" it may be implied ... transported to M-E, or taken from the depths of the world, or corrupted by Morgoth into a Dragon ... and as they remained in the limits of the world, they became "bound" to it, as much as Melian is ... and breeding other lesser beings which may still have been immortal, but could be slain like Elves ... because, although Glaurung dies, I cannot remember anything said of what happened after ... have to do some reading.
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#5 av_nefardec

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 07:55 PM

I don't think they are either Maiar or counterparts to eagles. Maia-like is closest, I think for Glaurung, but I'm not sure about Smaug, for instance.

I will post on the creation and development of dragons when I have some time this evening.
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#6 Black Op

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 08:25 PM

@Curufinwe: I always thought that those winged steeds of the Nazgul were the darker couterparts of the eagles. :) They did fight aganist each other at the Black Gate afterall......
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#7 Ankhareon

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 11:40 PM

Perhaps the fell beasts are just a species of dragon. but it seems they must have been maiar as they are too different from the eagles, yet it is said that Morgoth could not create life therefore they must have been bred from something and you can't change a bird into a flying lizard without the lizardy genes and bat genes etc but then where do the eagles come in?
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#8 Curufinwe

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Posted 08 November 2004 - 12:03 PM

:)

nah, not of the Eagles of the 3rd Age I spoke ... I was talking about the original Eagles ... Gwaihir and alike ...
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#9 Ankhareon

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 03:24 AM

I thought those were maiar, and I was talking about them
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#10 Curufinwe

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Posted 09 November 2004 - 04:54 PM

:)

not all Eagles are Maiar, methinks ... I was just saying that, according to me, Dragons and Eagles must have been a similar kind of Maiar at once, originally ... hence, a corruption maybe from Morgoth into Dragons and a purity kept for the Eagles ...
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#11 Caedus

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 12:35 AM

I don't think the Dragons were a corrupted version of the Eagles for the following reasons:

1. I can't imagine an eagle being captured alive being corrupted.

2. A corrupted versions mocks the original and can't dream to beat it (like the Ents <=> Trolls and Elves <=> Orcs, although the last one may not be true, it still shows the corruption and decline of strength)

Dragons could match Eagles any day, and I think Thorondor himself would've had trouble fighting Ancalagon --> it took an unique Elven ship, manned by an Elf descended from heroes/kings AND the might of a Silmaril to beat it.

3. The original wyrms didn't have wings, so it would be a strange corruption of an Eagle indeed.

4. From where did the dragons ability to breath fire came from if eagles didn't have it?

5. Trolls and Orcs (corruptions) were seen rapidly in the lands, when Morgoth inhabited them and the Elves came. But dragons were a centuries long-guarded mystery.
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Anco Peeters [ aka Caedus ]

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"Christopher was always much concerned with the consistency of the story and on one occasion ... interrupted: 'Last time, you said Bilbo's front door was blue, and you said Thorin had a golden tassel on his hood, but you've just said that Bilbo's front door was green, and the tassel on Thorin's hood was silver'; at which point Ronald exclaimed 'Damn the boy!' and strode across the room to make a note."

~ Priscilla and John Tolkien, The Tolkien Family Album, Houghton Mifflin Co., 1992, p. 58.

Nice Mythology site: Encyclopedia Mythica

#12 Sukkit

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Posted 10 November 2004 - 09:59 AM

The fact that they reproduced should not be an obstacle for them to be Maiar: after all, Melian had a daughter.

Maybe there were some sort of dragon-like monsters from the beginning of time (like the Kraken, for example - creatures that weren't created by Melkor but that served him), and Glaurung just was the first of these monsters to be inhabited by a Maia, growing in power, size, intelligence and malice (much like the relation between wolves and werewolves). Or maybe Morgoth just created a body for "Glaurung the Maia" to dwell. I don't really know.
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#13 Yiuel

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Posted 12 November 2004 - 03:17 AM

Just a small linguistic question here. Why do people use "wyrms". This is to me more than weird. First, two plural marks ("y" and "s") one from Sindarin and one from English...

:tasukete:
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#14 Caedus

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Posted 15 November 2004 - 08:49 PM

Is the term 'wyrm' Sindarin? I never knew that. I thought that 'wurm' and 'wrym' were both singular terms and English.
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Anco Peeters [ aka Caedus ]

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"Christopher was always much concerned with the consistency of the story and on one occasion ... interrupted: 'Last time, you said Bilbo's front door was blue, and you said Thorin had a golden tassel on his hood, but you've just said that Bilbo's front door was green, and the tassel on Thorin's hood was silver'; at which point Ronald exclaimed 'Damn the boy!' and strode across the room to make a note."

~ Priscilla and John Tolkien, The Tolkien Family Album, Houghton Mifflin Co., 1992, p. 58.

Nice Mythology site: Encyclopedia Mythica

#15 bksvqb_12

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Posted 10 December 2004 - 03:01 AM

Little late, but:
The Old English wyrm itself seems to descend from an Old Norse word, ormr, meaning 'serpent'. The Greek word drakon means 'serpent', too, so that if we follow the history of the words back far enough, 'worm' and 'dragon' both mean exactly the same thi
ng.
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#16 Yiuel

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Posted 10 December 2004 - 03:47 AM

So we shouldn't say "wyrms" as it makes no sence (like to say "mices"). I always understood worm as to be a regular plural (forming worms) than the odd "worm/wyrm". At least, it explains wyrm to me.
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#17 bksvqb_12

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Posted 10 December 2004 - 09:26 PM

Its basicly Wyrm- Worm/Wyrms- Worms in fantasy writing at least.
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#18 Valahiru

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Posted 14 December 2004 - 02:31 AM

I believe the acrtual way Morgoth "created" dragons was that he had vessals forged out of fire and iron to house spirits wriethed in fire which became dragons.
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#19 Valahiru

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Posted 14 December 2004 - 02:36 AM

And on the coruption factor. . . .

I believe any single elf could slay and single orc given you pair up those of "higher" lineage together. If you pair a peasent elf with Azog, I would imagine Azog would win. However if you pair Elrond with Azog Elrond would kick some orc @#$% ;). The only reason the orcs stand a chance against elves is that they outnumber elves by great odds. I wish i had a ratio here. . .dat would show my stamement.
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#20 Aldandil

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Posted 22 June 2006 - 03:38 AM

I think that the dragons were initially Maiar placed into bodies that Morgoth created. It took him quite a long time to do it, but he did manage eventually.
But I think that those dragons, inside their bodies, then reproduced, creating new bodies. Whethere these were inhabited then by more demons, or left soulless, is unclear. But we do know that the later dragons were far less powerful than their ancestors -- cf. Gandalf's comment about "none of the dragons now alive who have the fire hot enough in them to melt the rings" or somesuch. There were cold-drakes and "cold" flying dragons in the Third Age, but the fire-blooded Uruloki were all extinct. Might they have had fiery blood because they, unlike the later dragons, were really demons inside?

I think this because:

1. This is how werewolves/gaurhoth are described: "evil spirits" whom Sauron "imprisoned in hideous bodies" yet Carcharoth was one of the "whelps of the race of Draugluin" so clearly they reproduced.

2. In Morgoth's Ring, Tolkien stated that demons who took on incarnate bodies could reproduce, producing soulless bodies. But lack of a soul, does not prevent a creature from being able to think or speak. Tolkien declared that the Eagles and Hounds well might be mere animals (he also said they could be Maiar). And wargs certainly were only corruptions of normal wolves, yet they could talk and reason. Likewise there were talking ravens and a talking thrush...albeit that was in the Hobbit.

3. Dragons didn't have wings until the War of Wrath and I think there's no way some scaley fire-blooded, fire-breathing demon-lizard has anything to do with the Eagles of Manwe. Besides, somewhere it is said that Morgoth did capture and imprison and torture Eagles, but all it got him was dead birds. Apparently he liked to cut off their wings while they were still alive. :sad:
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