24 replies to this topic

[Quacker]

How much do we know about Sauron during his stay at Dol Guldur? I'd be so cool to know what occured when the Wise drove him from the tower back to Barad-dur and how the Nazgul reclaimed it. Is that related to the black winged figure that the Fellowship saw (and Legolas shot at) on their way down the Anduin?

[Enarwaen]

Dol Guldur is Sauron's fortress in Southern Mirkwood. The hill upon (and in) which it lies was formerly called Amon Lanc (The Bald Hill - since it was a bare hill standing out of the treetops of Mirkwood - then called Greenwood the Great).
Amon Lanc was once a settlement of the Silvan Elves - who later retreated further north (and ultimately founded Thranduil's Halls in northern Mirkwood)
Around the year 1000 in the Third Age Sauron (with his minions) took posession of Amon Lanc and turned it into a dark place - then called Dol Guldur (Hill of Black Magic).

I'm sure Sauron used his stay at DG to further his own power, learn news of any Rings of Power that would be still abroad and plot the ruin of the Free Peoples.
He actively lured Thrain II (father of Thorin Oakenshield) to his doom and so received the last missing Dwarven Ring. Other than that he secretly observed the lands of his enemies - especially Lothlórien - where one of his chief advesaries dwelt (Galadriel). He forsaw the move of the White Council to drive him off (TA 2941) - feinted a retreat and openly returned to Mordor in TA 2951.
I guess the Nazgûl just reclaimed Dol Guldur - i doubt anyone would stand a prolonged watch in such a dreadful place.

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Is that related to the black winged figure that the Fellowship saw (and Legolas shot at) on their way down the Anduin?

that definitely was the first occurance of a Nazgûl mounted on a fell beast (in the book) - the question is from where did he come from - either Mordor of Dol Guldur ... hard to say :\

[Quacker]

Thanks! Too bad he foresaw it, that would have been one heck of a battle.

[Gilluin]

To finish, during the war of the ring, one or two of the nazghul occupied Dol Guldur until the Sauron called them back for the assault on Minas Tirith. During this period the armies of Dol Guldur attacked Lothlorien in what amounts to two great assaults on the Elven kingdom. After the second defeat Galadriel, Celeborn and the forces of Lorien destroyed Dol Guldur and laid bare it's foundations.

[Quacker]

Ok, thanks for the "closure" on that.

[Caedus]

Quacker, on Feb 16 2005, 08:46 PM, said:

Thanks!  Too bad he foresaw it, that would have been one heck of a battle.

Well, from the Lord of the Rings we learn that Gandalf curses his naïvity (hey, I paraphrase here!) when he talks the deceit Sauron had weaved when 'fleeing' Dol Goldur. So I am sure that to make it look the most realistic to his adversaries, Sauron had to create one heck of a battle! Because otherwise the Wise would have become quite suspicious. On the other hand, the Wise weren't quite sure it was Sauron, so from that I conclude that he also didn't throw in his full available power yet, just to make sure they could mistake him for on of the powerful Nazgûl as well.

Mind you, that I didn't have hard prove for it, just some deduction on what seems the most likely (to me at least).

[Quacker]

Ok, that's cool...i'm still better informed from all this

[Yiuel]

Dol Guldur probably was a wise choice as a fortress, wasn't the One lost close from there?

[Black Op]

Just about yes, which also happened to be the area where Sauron rematerialized in the TA.

[Caedus]

It seems an as dark and brooding place as Mordor itself!

[Drashkurz]

I think Yiuel is correct - Dol Goldur is very close to the Gladden Fields, and we know that Sauron was searching there for the Ring (which had of course already been taken away by Deagol) shortly before he was driven out - and all the way up until the capture of Gollum. The nearby Dol Goldur would have been a perfect base for this search.

[Enarwaen]

i'm not sure he was fully aware of that fact when he first took Amon Lanc as his new abode around TA 1000. but for sure he later learned the truth - much to the chagrin of Saruman ...

[Shinsengumi]

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[quote name='Gilluin' date='Feb 16 2005, 04:30 PM']To finish, during the war of the ring, one or two of the nazghul occupied Dol Guldur until the Sauron called them back for the assault on Minas Tirith. During this period the armies of Dol Guldur attacked Lothlorien in what amounts to two great assaults on the Elven kingdom. After the second defeat Galadriel, Celeborn and the forces of Lorien destroyed Dol Guldur and laid bare it's foundations.
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In line with note, it's important to note that the moated fortress of Caras Galadhon was established during the Third Age in order to provde a bulwark against the forces of Dol Guldur; it did not exist beforehand. Thus while it was the seat of governance during the stewardship of Galadriel and Celeborn, most of the Galadhrim still dwelled beyond the white road in the forest beyond even by the time the Fellowship reached Lorien.

A note on geography directly pertaining to Dol Guldur, Caras Galadhon, and some of the other posts in this thread. . . Caras Galadhon was located on the eastern part of Lothlorien, on the west bank of the River Anduin, while Dol Guldur was almost directly to the east. The Gladden fields were located on the west bank of the Anduin, north of the Northern Fences of Lothlorien.

[Rinion]

I wonder what Radagast could do against Dol Guldur - Perhaps he called the beasts and birds of the forest to attack.

[Beren IV]

Well, to quote The Hobbit, the Necromancer was driven out of Dol Guldor by Gandalf and the other "masters of good magic".

Now, of course, the word magic does not have the same meaning in The Hobbit as it does in The Lord of the Rings; however, as in LotR, Tolkien hardly ever actually describes the magic, by the Hobbit definition or the LotR definition. All of the spellcraft and dueling between the Wise happens "off-stage", so to speak. We really do not know what the battle in Dol Guldor would have looked like, but I would only assume that the members of the White Council have powers beyond those we actually see them use in the books. I verymuch doubt that it looked anything like the Battle of the Pellenor Fields, for instance.

[Caesar]

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I verymuch doubt that it looked anything like the Battle of the Pellenor Fields, for instance

I would think, as Elrond and Galadriel were in the White Council, that an army of Elves would have been involved in expelling Sauron from Dol Guldor. He would have had Orcs and other minions under his command, so actual combat between the White Council and Sauron would have taken place.

[Beren IV]

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I would think, as Elrond and Galadriel were in the White Council, that an army of Elves would have been involved in expelling Sauron from Dol Guldor. He would have had Orcs and other minions under his command, so actual combat between the White Council and Sauron would have taken place.

For sure, yes, but how big an army? What tactics would they use? And what would the combat between the White Council and Sauron himself have looked like?

Some of the combat would be such we would understand - fighting between the Elves and Sauron's Orcs, for example, would use weapons we are familiar with. However, I would not assume that the main focus of the assault was based on brute force - rather, the Elven army would have been more to deflect the Orcs and allow the White Council to get in where they could engage Sauron and his more powerful minions (e.g. Black Númenórean sorcerers, maybe a Naz or three). That battle would almost certainly involve magical or otherwise special powers, although it might have happened "off-screen" so-to-speak, just as while Frodo could see Gandalf standing off Durin's Bane, the battle there was fought at least partially on a level that he could not percieve.

[Caesar]

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For sure, yes, but how big an army? What tactics would they use? And what would the combat between the White Council and Sauron himself have looked like?

Well, we know based on what was said during the council of Elrond in LotR that Elrond didnt exactly have a military force to be reckoned with, and not much would have changed since the attack on Dol Goldur, but he probably still had a decent-sized elvish force. Galadriel and Celeborn would have had fairly large army (large enough to take out Dol Goldur a second time during the War of the Ring), and we can only assume that the White Council would have had some other forces, possibly from Ciridan and other sources (although I dont think Saruman had any military power then, and if he did it was well hidden for the rest of the Council). I wont make a guess with specific numbers, but probably several thousand.

As for tactics, we dont know much about the structure of Dol Goldur other than it was a fortified tower on a hill in Mirkwood, so its hard to say what military tactics would have been used. The elven armies probably would have been used to attack the fortifications and engage the garrison while the White Council hunted down Sauron.

I'm sure the White Council would have used their powers (but I would really like to know what those powers were though), but I would suppose that Sauron feigned retreat before they could actualy engage him in battle. As Tolkien was a professor of Celtic studies, the Istari were probably simlar to the druids.

Edited by Caesar89, 06 August 2005 - 09:38 PM.

[Beren IV]

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I'm sure the White Council would have used their powers (but I would really like to know what those powers were though)

Precicely my point!

If my geography is correct, Lórien is about the size of Attica, the region in Greece controlled by Athens. I seem to recall that during the classical period in ancient Greece, the population of Attica was ~250 thousand (despite the only fifteen thousand in Athens itself). I am sure that the 0 A.D. historians would be able to provide more precice (and more accurate) details than these. I would not expect the Elves to populate as densely as Humans, so I normally see Lórien as having a population of around fifty thousand. Most of those would be adults, and the females would be quite able to fight along with the males if the need came for it (see HoME X). So Galadriel could have fielded an army of fifty thousand - but I doubt that she would. The army is more of a diversion than an assault. I would agree with your number of 'several thousand'.

All of that said, we know that Dol Guldor is stronger in the War of the Ring than before the Battle of the Five Armies - but also recall that it fell to a two-pronged assault: one Elvish army from Lórien generalled by Celeborn, the other from the Woodland Realm commanded by Thranduil.

[Rinion]

HoMe X? I'm trying to decide which HoMe I should buy. What's the title of HoMe X?