[Beren IV]

One interesting idea that I thought Rise of Nations had over most similar RTS games before it is that Wonders, instead of simply causing a victory timer (Age of Empires), and in addition to giving general civilization-wide benefits (Empire Earth), is that they generate Wonder Points. The idea being that, if a player has a certain advantage of Wonder Points above everybody else in the game, the victory timer starts, but the timer can stop by either causing the otherwise winning player to lose Wonders or by lessening the gap between the leader and the runner-up by having the runner-up accumulate more Wonder Points.

The representation of a Wonder Victory in RoN can be imagined in several ways. The "historical" way to imagine it of course is that the Wonders generate cultural influence and subvert everybody else in the game if you have enough of them. Alternatively, they could be the "magical" part of an otherwise historical world: they allow you to win by divine favors (a lot of the Wonders are temples), or by divinely impregnable fortresses, or the like.

It seems to me that a setup like this is very Tolkienian. Generally, the fantastical element of Tolkien's world is glossed over to the point where we have to interpret how much of it is even there. Moreover, there are quite a number of very abstract references to the 'power' of various factions and lords in Arda in the books, and that power is clearly something more than pure and simple might of arms, but is still never actually described, and certainly a lot of it is simply overwhelming charisma, but there may be more as well. Certainly the Silmarils, the Rings of Power, and other similar items do things in Arda that are useful militarily, but they aren't the soldiers themselves.

Given the focus that The Last Alliance places on military might as the key to winning battles, with the only civilization in the game to have any truly fantastical armies being those of Morgoth (with His Dragons and Balrogs), it seems to me that the game could benefit from a sort of nondescript special Art/Sorcery powers that generate effects on the game similar to what RoN's Wonders do, including giving something analogous to RoN's Wonder Points that can, depending on the victory conditions, decide the winner of the game. I would call these Might of Arts points, since they represent the civilization's strength and capacity in what Tolkien describes as the Arts, either the beautiful, elegant Arts that the Elves depend on, or Morgul, the Black Arts, of evil.

I further suggest four different sources of Might of Arts points in TLA:

1. Wonders. These are the most familiar in concept because so many other RTS games use them. Each Wonder would be unique (as in RoN), and available to a subset of the civilizations of each Age, although preferably more than one (e.g. it does not make sense for Morgoth to build the Caverns of Doriath, but for both the Sindar and the Dwarves it does). Naturally, some civilizations would be better or worse at this; this is part of the balance of the game.

2. High Arts. These are technologies that can be researched, although they require tremendous resources. Like all technologies, they provide some benefit in addition to Might of Arts points, but like other sources of such points, they are unique: once one player researches a High Art, it becomes unavailable for other players. Again, each of these High Arts would be available to a subset of the civilizations, although with enough overlap that there still can be a race to research any individual High Art.

3. Quests. These are special functions that require some research to make available. Once a quest is available, a site somewhere on the map appears for it (where on the map and what it is depends on the quest). Then some specific units, again what units these must be depend on the quest and the civilization attempting it, must be taken to this site. More units can be taken as well; this increases the chances of the quest's being successful. These units are removed from the game temporarily, but return if the quest is successful (which would depend on random factors). Obviously, some quests are available to some civilizations but not to others, and once a quest is completed, nobody else can attempt it. Successfully completing a quest would award not only Might of Arts points, but could also grant commodities, goods, and even bonus units (and heroes).

4. Treasures. These are items that can be acquired and stored, perhaps as a result of quests, perhaps simply found, or perhaps made with certain technologies. Treasures can of course be captured by other players, and some items have detrimental effects as well as beneficial ones, depending on who you are (it's not good to wield the One Ring unless you want to become evil yourself...).

[Aztec_Brave]

Actually, the orignal plan was to have wonders as huge colossal buildings, or rather a huge collossal group of buildings that would be build seperately, that would give some kind of bonus (each building giving a different one). I think the idea got scrapped (or at least filed away into the "unlikely" folder) because it would be just too complex for the team to do (remember, these guys are doing it for free). I'm not sure what they're planning right now, although I find it very likely the Silmarilli and the Rings of Power will feature in the game somehow.

[Caedus]

Not for free, but in honor of the work of Tolkien! And what is money when you can set yourself in stone !

I'm not so enthousiast about the 'High Arts' and 'Quests' idea. I've seen the technology 'tree' in it's concept fase (was posted here a while ago) and it's deep and complex enough as it is. About the 'Quests': this would be something for individual scenario's, which someone has designed, not for random battles. Generals typically need their troops and don't send them away on strange quests that have a debatable influence on the battle ahead.

On Wonders: Tevin, I don't see the problem of including them in the game. The only difference with normal buildings, is that they should be breathtaking. And not every wonder needs to be huge: Numenor/Gondor could have their 'White Tree' as a wonder (just for example) and in ordor to make it grow, they would need to achieve many requirements.

On Treasures: I believe they will be called 'Artifacts' and that they will be included in the game. Heroes and leaders would be able to wield them and one could, in a random Third Age game, find Rings of Power. But I don't know if they will/should automatically achieve victory for you. if you gain control of them: even Sauron was defeated by the might of The Last Alliance, even though he wielded the Ring.

Finally: I strongly vote for the possibilty of a cultural victory of sorts, whether through Wonders or technologies or something else/a combination. It would strongly add to the game and players would still need to build a military in order to defend themselves (and their cultural treasure) from their foes.

Keep in mind that I'm not part of the team, so nothing what I've typed here is conclusive!

[Rinion]

Perhaps WOnders could enable the player to build a specific hero? eg. Thangorodrim=Melkor/Morgoth

Nice signature, Caedus. lol

[Mithrandil]

That's an idea. Every civilisation has choise of three leaders, no? It could be done so that if you build a wonder, the leader could join your troops. For the rest, I agree with Caedus.

Oh, and wasn't it said that one could "build" it's own artifacts?

[Caedus]

Building your own artifacts sounds really interesting! I can imagine having blue-prints for Rings of Power (for example) and then adding your own effects to them.

Being able to get leaders when you have build a wonder however, doesn't sound logical to me. Because building a wonder takes a long time and that would mean your people is without a leader for a very long time in the game. And more: how can a leaderless people ever construct a wonder?! It would be more logical to give the player a general bonus when a wonder is constructed. Like a big morale boost.

Rinion, on Jun 21 2005, 02:55 PM, said:

Perhaps WOnders could enable the player to build a specific hero? eg. Thangorodrim=Melkor/Morgoth

Nice signature, Caedus. lol

Thanks! Finally someone who notices it !

[draugaer]

I think the team has already agreed upon having a player choose a hero to start with (the hero will provide special advantages), also I believe one will be able to construct/write tombs or songs about the leader in order to keep the hero's advantages or strengthen them.

[Mithrandil]

Quote

I think the team has already agreed upon having a player choose a hero to start with (the hero will provide special advantages), also I believe one will be able to construct/write tombs or songs about the leader in order to keep the hero's advantages or strengthen them.

As far as I know this is correct, although you could not write songs yourself, that would be a Noldorin songweaver for instance, who would "make" songs, and boost the morale and give advantages.

Well, the leader could also govern his people from out of a building, no?

You can indeed choose your leader. There is a choice out of three leaders per civ per age. Once you have chosen your leader, you cannot change.

We really need some replies from team members here

[Beren IV]

Oooh, I did not know about the Leaders bit. We really need a more up-to-date website with existing game information on it.

The entire concept of Might of Arts points would be very easy to script... I could probably do it myself, given a C-like scripting language, if you like. Quests would be similarly easy to script. Perhaps this would be for an expansion?

I guess the question, then, is this: what does an individual scenario represent? If it is simply a battle (e.g. a Dagor Brollach scenario), then there is little room for Quests, Wonders would be just unique buildings from the start of a game, and only the Treasures/Artifacts would be worth including. However, if a scenario represents the entirety of the First Age, then all of these things really must be part of it.

[Caedus]

A scenario can have two different forms (as far as I know):

1. It's a scenario hand-made by a designer. That means the scenario can have any goals and can take place at any (span of) time and location.

2. It's a random scenario. That means the game-engine generated it, with the player propably selecting some options, like how much water/forests/hills/etc. should be on it.

[Beren IV]

I suppose the question, then, is what a random map will entail (i.e. an entire Age, or just a short period?).

[Caedus]

I believe a random scenario takes place in either the First, Second or Third Age but doesn't necessarily span that whole age. It would propably translate to a short period. I guess you can have wonders and artifacts in a random scenario. How you envision quests to be in such a scenario is not clear to me, maybe you can elaborate on that? And about High Arts: where is their equivalent in the works of Tolkien? It doesn't feel to me, like it is part of it.

[Beren IV]

The High Arts I envisioned would be the learning of particular arts of building and power that go beyond simple technologies or arms, and these powers would be potentially game-winning (if incremental) in scope. I will admit that of the four ideas, it is the least grounded in the litarature, but possible examples might include:

-The skill of the Noldor in creating gems, espeically gems that shine with their own light and have power of their own (the Silmarilli being the most potent gems made this way, but there were probably others of lesser scope)

-The art of Ring-lore devised by Sauron, shared decietfully with the Noldor, and stolen by Saruman.

-The powers of foresight perfected by the Wise both of the Elves and of the good Númenoreans.

-Wisdom to use the Light of Valinor that the Noldor slowly learned over the course of the Wars.

-Morgoth's use of his Taint to destroy the very land from which his opponents life.



Quests would work something like this:

There is a list of possible quests in the command bar of the Town Hall (or equivalent building), and what quests are availalbe to you depend on the Age in which the game is set and which civ you are playing. Each one is researched like a little technology. Once this happens, a flare opens up somewhere on the map determined by a script unique to each quest. Units must be sent there and, when they get there, they disappear from the map. Some time later, you get a message indicating whether your quest was a success or failure (this depends on the types and quantity of units sent as well as a random factor). If the quest failed, you can try again. If the quest succeeded, a script fires that gives you you rewards for the quest, including Might of Arts points, and the quest is disabled for all other players and can no longer be attempted (and all current attemts either fail or come back with limited success - just the units sent).

So, for example, here is how the Quest for the Silmaril might work:

The Quest for the Silmaril is available to the Noldor (Beren was a Noldo in the BoLT version), the Sindar (Lúthien is a Sinda), and the Edain (Beren is an Adan in all versions except BoLT). Details differ depending on your civ, but let us for the sake of argument say we are playing Sindar.

There is a button in the command list for the Sindar Great Hall that has a list of quests available to the Sindar. One of these is the Quest for the Silmaril. In order to begin the quest, first we must research it, so we have to select it and pay the resource cost. This works exactly like a technology, except that instead of providing some benefit, it enables the quest. This research represents gathering the necessary information needed to avail the quest, in this case learning about the Silmarils, finding the Gates of Angband, and creating a heroic culture that could produce heroes like Beren and Lúthien.

Once the quest is researched, a script is fired that places the location of the quest on the map. This script starts by looking a player on the map playing the forces of Morgoth, and if it finds one, it places the quest location near one of their towns/fortified areas. In this particular game there happen to be no players playing Morgoth on the map (our single opponent is playing Edain instead), so the script finds a nice secluded portion of the map and places the quest location there, and denotes its location with a flare (the location is stored, so if the Edain player researches the same quest later on because we haven't completed it yet, it is in the same place). Since this is supposed to be either Angband or else Sauron's captured Minas Tirith, it places a few Morgoth's Forces units not far away. Meanwhile, the script waits for the units to attempt the quest.

Now, this is the Quest of the Silmaril and we are playing Sindar. Any attempt on the quest will automatically fail if we do not take a Female Citizen (representing Lúthien) and a Marchwarden (representing Beren) to the quest site (the unit requirements are different for different civs, but similar in nature). We can take other units as well, and indeed they will increase our chances, but these two are the ones required, so we will send a Lord to go with them. Once they are both in the area around the flared quest site, another script fires that causes the units to disappear, along with any other units we sent. The number and type of units are given a point value by the script (each quest script values units in different ways). In this case, Lords have a high value, because Finrod is important in this quest.

This point value is then run through a random process which determines the success of the quest. Then we wait, while our units have their grand adventure. After the script's wait command finishes its wait, it pops a message in the chat display indicating the results: our quest succeeded! The script then assigns a hefty sum of Might of Arts points to our total, and spawns other rewards: we get a Silmaril artifact (which carries more Might of Arts points in and of itself), and the script creates for us the Hero Beren and the Hero Lúthien spawned at our Great Hall. The script also disables the Quest for the Silmaril and all related scripts for the Edain player elsewhere on the map (i.e. this quest has already been completed, but he could still try the Journey of Tuor quest or the Hunt for Glaurung quest, which we haven't done, and in fact can't, being Sindar, and those being Edain/Noldor and Edain/Dwarven quests, respectively).

Now, all of this time, our Edain opponent hasn't been doing quests - he has been doing nothing but building an army. Between the Quest for the Silmaril and ownership of the Silmaril itself, we now have a sufficient advantage in Might of Arts points to win the game. So, a victory timer starts, and if he doesn't lessen the gap in Might of Arts points, like build a Wonder, or capture our hard-won Silmaril, he's going to lose the game. Since he has already built an army, he's likely to try the latter. So we had better work on our military and quick, or he's going to overrun us. Fortunately, we have two heroes to lead our defense!

[Aztec_Brave]

The concept is kind of interesting but I think it presents some problems. The first that comes to mind is specificaly related to the quest described: that posession of the Silmaril increases you chances of victory, which as we can clearly see is not exactly what Tolkien wrote. On the contrary, the Silmaril was Thingol's downfall (even though it must be noted that Thingol's death scene where he is slayn by the dwarves after an argument over the gem is the work of Christopher Tolkien trying to fill a gap and provide a consistent story). The other thing I don't really like is the random element. I think that just sending units in and hoping for the best is not exactly the tactition's dream. Besides, Beren and Luthien wrestled the Silmaril from Morgoths crown alone, Tuor journeyed to Gondolin alone and Turin slew Glaurung alone, in the case of the latter 2 they were outside of the control of what are called Major Civs in TLA (Tuor was totally alone and Turin living with the Edain of Haleth). Tolkien prefered individual feats of bravery to huge impersonal battles. Apart from the above 3 we could name Frodo's quest, Hurin's last stand, Glorfindel's slaying of the Balrog Isildur's slaying of Sauron, or even Bilbo when he singlehandedly saved the Dwarves from the Spiders and Elves.

[Beren IV]

Well, I see your points about the tactical decision. Ideally, what I would like to do in this case is have the game pause and launch an RPG of sorts to handle the quest - but that's not very friendly to an RTS. The random element was included because the quest might fail. As for being alone, the other units have supporting roles, roles that help the main characters (in this case the Marchwarden and Female Citizen), but aren't absolutely essential. The Lord included to fill in for Finrod isn't there to help B&L defeat Morgoth. He's there to keep the Archers of Nargothrod from filling Beren up with arrows, and then save him in the werewolf pit, so that he can go on to acomplish his task.


Regarding applicability of the Silmaril, remember that the Silmaril itself is an Artifact, and if you read my earlier ideas about artifacts (I called them "treasures" then), they have drawbacks. Yes, the Silmaril grants Might of Arts Points. Yes, it adds Jewelry to your stockpile. It probably does a couple of other things as well. But having an artifact isn't necessarily a good thing, for two reasons:

1. Other players know you've got it, and know that they can get its powers and Might of Arts points if they can capture it. By acquiring a nice hefty artifact, you have earned the envy of the other players in the game!

2. Artifacts have drawbacks intrinsic to themselves. The One Ring, for example, might slowly corrupt you. The Silmaril could harm your relations with independent Dwarves. Worse, merely having it causes independent Noldor units to occasionally spawn and attack you! I do think that it is very Tolkienian that if you have something like that, and you can keep it (which, in this case, Eärendil finally does), then it does increase your chances of winning. But that's if - and only if - you can hold onto it!