39 replies to this topic

[Beren IV]

I am sure there were greedy Dwarves - there always are. The only reason why the Elves would (almost) always side against Sauron is that the principal vice that they suffer from is their pride and their fanatacism, which means that an Elf become evil would still side against Sauron and with the other Elves, even so.

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The ideal Tolkien strategy game, IMO, would combine elements of Age of Wonders with something like TLA. In AoW, you can migrate cities from one race to another, and this takes some time, requires policing of the migrating city, and affects race relations (beneficial with the race coming in, detrimental to the one going out). What I think would be ideal is for a fantastical game centering around the great heroes and users of magical (or superhuman, if you will) powers, in which the fantastical aspect is reasonably common. However, instead of migrating races, you give some bonus to units, etc. of the invading race to displace the race in a conflict on a different map, and this would be much less fantastical and more 'purist', like TLA. Or, you could play as a race, and then you could revolt and oust the leader/wizard/priest/kings who would try to migrate you!

[CorrTerek]

I seem to recall mention of some dwarves fighting for Sauron in the last Alliance, but that the Longbeards did not.

[Rinion]

Didn't Sauron once have some evil Dwarves in one of his battles?
About Dwrves as slaves, I think, when Tolkien reffered to Sauron not being able to control them, he might have been reffering to the fact that the Dwarves were resistant to the control the One Ring had over the Rings of Power.

Edited by Rinion, 09 August 2005 - 05:24 AM.

[Beren IV]

I agree - Sauron can't control Dwarves with the Rings. But even so, I seriously wonder just how easy it is to control Elves and Dwarves even through fear. They seem to me to be very ornery peoples, who would usually rather die than be slaved.

[Mithrandil]

Yes, while the elves are to noble to be under the will of Sauron, the dwarves are probably to stubborn. But if Sauron would come to them as Anatar, and even if he's known as the dark lord and offers them gold or mithril, maybe the dwarves would follow him. They are also very greedy

[Caedus]

Well, of course Sauron doesn't have to tell he is Sauron (while in that form). So why can he not fool the Elves?

In fact he did so, when making the Rings.

[Beren IV]

Sauron lost the ability to take on the form of Annatar when Númenor got submarined. After that point, he can't appear in a form to the Elves that they will not immediately recognize as evil. Moreover, even as Annatar, Sauron could coax the Elves into doing things he wanted them to do, but he couldn't actually control them. More, he tempted them into opening themselves up to his subsequent attack, which laid waste to their civilization.

[Gamling the Old]

I believe it mentions in the Hobbit that some dwarves were evil and even made alliances with goblins from time to time.

Also, about enslavement, in the silmarillian it says that Aule created the dwarves 'stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hunger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples.' and also if you remember the story of Turin: Mim did not take well at all to being bound, actually became defiant in the face of the outlaw gang because of it. Doesn't sound very enslavable to me.

[Caedus]

About Mim: can you imagine any race that is easy to enslave? I think it is only logical that any person would act defiantly if supressed into service. That is not a unique aspect of Dwarves. But it also doesn't mean that enslavement isn't possible.

[Rinion]

I think it very likely that Dwarves can be enslaved. We do know that although they may be stubborn, their spirits can be broken by enough torturing. Remember what Gandalf said about Thrain in the hands of the Necromancer:

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I tried to save your father, but it was too late. He was witless and wandering, and had forgotten almost everything except the map and key.

If he really had forgotten about almost everything, I'm sure the pride of being a Dwarf had left him. It wouldn't be too difficult to enslave him after that.

[Aldandil]

There is another example of what Morgoth did to captured Elf strongholds: in the sack of Nargothrond, the Orcs rounded up all of the women and children and herded them away as slaves.


Regarding surrendering: It is said specifically, although I'm not sure where, that Orcs almost never surrendered and NEVER to Elves. Basically, Morgoth had convicend them that Elves were even more sadistic and cruel than them, and only took prisoners "for sport" or to eat them. Which is of course what the Orcs did to all their prisoners, those that they didn't enslave. I doubt very much Orcs had much concept of mercy at all, and probably it would not even occur to them that somebody would spare them if they surrendered.


Regarding enslavement: I agree very much that looking at what happened to Gwindor and Thrain, Elves and Dwarves *could* be enslaved, broken, etc. But that they rarely ever served *willingly* the Dark Lords. Yet there is mention of Dwarves in the East who served Sauron, in "Dwarves and Men" in the book Peoples of Middle-Earth.

[Beren IV]

My comment about enslaving Elves remains: there are somethings that Morgoth could do, because He's a Vala, and which Sauron could not, and it appears to me that enslaving Elves is one of them. I do remember that the Orcs took a number off from Nargothrond, but recall that Findulias wound up nailed to a tree.

[Sukkit]

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Basically, Morgoth had convicend them that Elves were even more sadistic and cruel than them

Actually I don't think Morgoth was too far off in that regard. I doubt an Elf would have tortured a captured Orc, but the Orc definitely couldn't expect mercy either.

We rarely get to see the Orkish point of view. That's a pity.

[CrazyThumbs]

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I doubt an Elf would have tortured a captured Orc, but the Orc definitely couldn't expect mercy either.

Morgoth was basically tricking them into not surrendering, so they could fight to the death. And probably for other reasons.

[Sukkit]

Yeah, they didn't surrender. They just routed en masse

The good guys seldom rout, they rather retreat in relatively good order. That's interesting.

[Beren IV]

I think that's because Tolkien envisioned good people as being intrinsically orderly.

[Aldandil]

Sukkit, on Jun 25 2006, 05:36 PM, said:

Actually I don't think Morgoth was too far off in that regard. I doubt an Elf would have tortured a captured Orc, but the Orc definitely couldn't expect mercy either.

We rarely get to see the Orkish point of view. That's a pity.

Eldarin law specifically forbade torture or cruel treatment of any kind. True, I don't expect many of them would feel like just letting them run off to kill another day. Probably they would simply be killed. But that is a far cry from what Morgoth claimed, which was specifically that Elves "only took captives for amusement [torture], or to eat" (sorry, I can't find the reference *duck*)

I, for one, do not want to hear anything from an Orcish point of view. I prefer things that are not insane/sadomasochistic. Orcs are kind of an idealised representation of the most horrible potentials of humanity, exaggerated to an inhuman level. If you don't enjoy hearing from the point of view of Nazis or terrorists or child molesters, probably you would not enjoy reading about what the Orcs think either.

Edited by Ellen, 06 July 2006 - 12:47 AM.

[Radagast]

Yes, but think about it. If you were raised in such a setting as an orc, you may not turn out so different from them, even if you are a nice person. Orcs are surrounded by terror and death their entire lives. Any sign of mercy from one and he would immediatly be set upon by his comrades. Morgoth and Sauron have no use for mercy, as it would gain them nothing, so they do not tolerate it in their servants. I do not think it is possible for an entire species to be evil, because there is no species free from notions of envy, revenge, and other "evil" feelings.

[Radagast]

Sorry to revive the dead thread, but I have some belated input.
The evil Dwarves were mentioned in The Hobbit- the Goblins occasionally had dealings with them. Besides, evil is seldom a quantifiable condition- I have no doubt that Elves and the more ethical of the Men would find some Dwarven actions reprehensible, while the Dwarves themselves are expected to jealously guard their wealth and avenge any offense. Tolkien asserts (through Elrond) that "...nothing is evil in the beginning; even Sauron was not so." This has the twofold meaning that there is always a chance that evil will not be found where it is expected, and that all creatures have the ability to be evil. Therefore conflict between or within races is entirely plausible. After all, you are not controlling your entire faction, just a single outpost in whatever contested region you may be occupying.

Edit: Sorry, I didn't see the second page

Edited by Radagast, 30 April 2010 - 02:02 AM.

[Aldandil]

All creatures do have the ability to be evil, quite true -- and evil in Arda Marred is always a matter of corrupting what once was pure. Everything was created by Eru, who created no evil. Even Morgoth didn't start out evil.

As for conflict within factions... I don't think you have to look far to find it. The hobbits fought each other (with Saruman's prompting), Numenoreans fought Dunelendings, Rohirrim fought Dunelendings, Gondorim fought Druedain, Numenoreans fought each other, Easterlings fought each other, Noldor fought Teleri, Sindar fought Petty-Dwarves, Easterlings fought the Edain and Noldor, etc. Orcs fight each other all the time, without a tyrannical Umaia or Dark Lord to keep them in line.



I don't think we should worry about thread necromancy -- at this point, every thread can be considered "dead."